The 9/12 Project

[GenSeneca]

......I think that the US is now a sophisticated country that needs to exert itself rather than wrap itself up in obscure historical dogma...... all seems a bit puritanical.

Which of the 9 principles and 12 values do you disagree with and why?

 

[The Scotsman]

Hi Gen, I guess its not a case of agreeing or disagreeing with any of the "stated principals" I see them more as debating points!

 

[GenSeneca]

Hi Gen, I guess its not a case of agreeing or disagreeing with any of the "stated principals" I see them more as debating points!

Name any American politician, on the national stage, that you believe is grounded in a set of principles. By "grounded" I mean they won't sell out a principle here or there to get ahead in the polls or win re-election. I can't think of ANY, even Ron Paul stuffs earmarks into appropriation bills he knows will pass and then votes against them.

Perhaps you think its "sophisticated" for politicians to pander and flip-flop, changing their stated position according to the prevailing popular winds but I would use an entirely different word to describe them.

Now if you really think they are nothing more than points of debate, try to come up with your own list of principles that all parties can agree with... That's the point of the 9 principles and 12 values, something to bind us together that we can count on and rally behind. I can't count on, or rally behind, a party and president that changes their stated political position based on the latest round of polling.

 

[The Scotsman]

Name any American politician, on the national stage, that you believe is grounded in a set of principles. By "grounded" I mean they won't sell out a principle here or there to get ahead in the polls or win re-election. I can't think of ANY,

.... totaly agree with you, principals and politics don't mix and never can because politics is a series of compromises.

Perhaps you think its "sophisticated" for politicians to pander and flip-flop, changing their stated position according to the prevailing popular winds but I would use an entirely different word to describe them.

.... annoying isn't it! But that's politics as well as part of life in general! We all make compromises when we need to or when it suits us - even uncontiously. For example, the wife bought a pair of boots the other day and was beaming with delight when she brought them home - they looked truely AWFUL!! But I said they looked great on her! Why stamp on her feelings?

Politics and life are about managing peoples expectations and striving to achieve the impossible - you cannot please all the people all the time.

Now if you really think they are nothing more than points of debate, try to come up with your own list of principles that all parties can agree with....

... why? Politicians never agree about anything!! Political parties afterall are just a loose confederation of roughly like minded individuals that would screw each other over to score a point and rise up the greasey pole!


As far as political principals are concerned.... what is it.... roughly 45% of the US population have bothered to turnout to vote in the last 20 general elections which means 55% don't give a $hit about principals!

 

[GenSeneca]

.... totaly agree with you, principals and politics don't mix and never can...

Once upon a time they did. It was the cornerstone of my nations founding.

We all make compromises when we need to or when it suits us

When you achieve a compromise between responsibility and irresponsibility, who do you think wins? ...Responsibility loses every time.

Why stamp on her feelings?

That was a horrible analogy but I get what your trying to say... and I think its ridiculous. If your daughter wants a pony, and you can't afford a pony, should you buy it for her anyway so as to not hurt her feelings? Of course not, you have to be a responsible adult and say "No, you can't have that... we can't afford it." Well then your fiscally irresponsible wife comes along and says, "Don't cry sweaty, I'll buy you that pony on daddy's credit card."

Politics and life are about managing peoples expectations and striving to achieve the impossible - you cannot please all the people all the time.

The purpose of politics and life is to work for, acquire, manage and allocate resources as efficiently and effectively as possible to achieve the maximum amount of return on your investment.

Political parties afterall are just a loose confederation of roughly like minded individuals that would screw each other over to score a point and rise up the greasey pole!

Do you think thats how it should be, or just that its never going to change?

Remember, Obama promised just that kind of "Change", he was going to be a post-partisan, better-than-Bush, unite-the-country kinda president. Obviously those were "just words, just speeches" but that's what a majority of Americans really wanted - He was just telling people what they wanted to hear though... He didn't really believe any of it or plan on trying to do any of it. He couldn't have been elected if he told the truth and promised: higher taxes for everyone, less freedom for everyone, massive expansion of government over the private sector, open boarders, amnesty and benefits for illegal aliens, never ending bailouts, debts and deficits as far as the eye can see, all the while finger pointing and shifting blame. Obama has to hide who he really is and what he really believes behind a teleprompter of prepared remarks and carefully worded speeches.

We didn't elect a president, we elected a teleprompter.

As far as political principals are concerned.... what is it.... roughly 45% of the US population have bothered to turnout to vote in the last 20 general elections which means 55% don't give a $hit about principals!

Gonna go out on a limb and guess I know more Americans disenfranchised with the political system than you do... The ones I know don't think their vote makes any difference and even if their vote did matter, they are smart enough to see that both parties are different sides of the same coin - one side is just shinier than the other.

 

[The Scotsman]

When you achieve a compromise between responsibility and irresponsibility, who do you think wins? ...Responsibility loses every time.

..... no, it surely just depends on the compromise. A compromise doesn't have to be between responsibility or irresponsibility it can be anything!

We didn't elect a president, we elected a teleprompter.

....... Thats what it is now - style over substance because people are basically to stupid to realise that what looks great on television is not reality. Unfortunately stupidity reigns as its so easy spoon feed people from a television screen as long as the sound bites are short and snappy and the delivery is done by a photogenic actor! We should know, we had Tony Blair and you lot loved him again he was a vacuous political actor.

 

[GenSeneca]

..... no, it surely just depends on the compromise. A compromise doesn't have to be between responsibility or irresponsibility it can be anything!

I'm asking why you would want to, and exactly how you should go about, compromising when that is the option - Responsibility or Irresponsibility. Its ALWAYS a choice between Freedom and Government Power... Government expands at the cost of our freedom, we can't have both an expanding government and expanding liberty.

For example... Taxes. Democrats pretend its "responsible" to jack up tax rates up as high as possible - although its empirically proven that higher tax rates do not bring in more revenue - and at the same time they say lowering taxes is irresponsible - despite empirical proof that lower tax rates result in more economic activity.

....... Thats what it is now - style over substance because people are basically to stupid to realise that what looks great on television is not reality. Unfortunately stupidity reigns as its so easy spoon feed people from a television screen as long as the sound bites are short and snappy and the delivery is done by a photogenic actor! We should know, we had Tony Blair and you lot loved him again he was a vacuous political actor.

What do you think of Daniel Hannan?

That guy looks to have Rush Limbaugh sized balls! We don't have any politicians willing to stand up against the Democrats massive tax-and-spend policies with such passion.

BTW, I was there in England when Tony Blair was running for office.... I couldn't live in England, your options for politicians are limited to shades of left and even the centrist candidates are painted as right wing extremists... I'd imagine Hannan is getting pounded in your media and parliament like Rush Limbaugh is in ours.
----------------------------------------

Back toward the topic...

The 9/12 project is Becktastic.