Property - fundamental protection of other rights

Dr.Who

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Right to Property

"It is not the right of property which is protected, but the right to property. Property, per se, has no rights; but the individual--the man--has three great rights, equally sacred from arbitrary interference: the right to his life, the right to his liberty, the right to his property. . . The three rights are so bound together as to be essentially one right. To give a man his life but deny him his liberty, is to take from him all that makes his life worth living. To give him his liberty but take from him the property which is the fruit and badge of his liberty, is to still leave him a slave." (George Sutherland, Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, 21st January, 1921, italics added).

It is an undeniable fact that our country was founded on the basic premise that each person has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What is not so well known, was that there was much debate over the final term--pursuit of happiness. Many of the founding fathers wanted that to be replaced with the term 'property'. In the end, it was decided that pursuit of happiness was to be used. In regards to this, John Adams said the following, "All men are born free and independent, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties, that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness." (Quoted from George A. Peek, Jr, The Political Writings of John Adams , Liberal Arts Press, New York, 1954, pg. 96).

It is impossible for me to reconcile the actions of our current government with what was originally intended by our founding fathers. I do not attack one or the other party with this statement, rather, I feel that each party has not only started down the path to socialism, but actually seem to be sprinting towards that as a final end form of government for our country.

The Rights of Government

The rights of our government are merely an extension of our own natural rights. Each of us, as a human, has inalienable rights. A government is merely an extension, a granting, of those individual rights in an effort to pool our rights for self-defense and the protection of our three great rights. Those rights are life, liberty, and property.

The government can never have greater rights than I do as an individual. I do not have the right to take that which is my neighbor's property and give it to another. I cannot even do this if the receiving party has great need. It would be considered theft. How then, can our government take that which is one person's personal property and give it to another?

Right To Property

"It is not the right of property which is protected, but the right to property. Property, per se, has no rights; but the individual--the man--has three great rights, equally sacred from arbitrary interference: the right to his life, the right to his liberty, the right to his property. . . The three rights are so bound together as to be essentially one right. To give a man his life but deny him his liberty, is to take from him all that makes his life worth living. To give him his liberty but take from him the property which is the fruit and badge of his liberty, is to still leave him a slave." (George Sutherland, Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, 21st January, 1921, italics added).

It is an undeniable fact that our country was founded on the basic premise that each person has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What is not so well known, was that there was much debate over the final term--pursuit of happiness. Many of the founding fathers wanted that to be replaced with the term 'property'. In the end, it was decided that pursuit of happiness was to be used. In regards to this, John Adams said the following, "All men are born free and independent, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties, that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness." (Quoted from George A. Peek, Jr, The Political Writings of John Adams , Liberal Arts Press, New York, 1954, pg. 96).

It is impossible for me to reconcile the actions of our current government with what was originally intended by our founding fathers. I do not attack one or the other party with this statement, rather, I feel that each party has not only started down the path to socialism, but actually seem to be sprinting towards that as a final end form of government for our country.

The rights of our government are merely an extension of our own natural rights. Each of us, as a human, has inalienable rights. A government is merely an extension, a granting, of those individual rights in an effort to pool our rights for self-defense and the protection of our three great rights. Those rights are life, liberty, and property.

The government can never have greater rights than I do as an individual. I do not have the right to take that which is my neighbor's property and give it to another. I cannot even do this if the receiving party has great need. It would be considered theft. How then, can our government take that which is one person's personal property and give it to another?

Thomas Jefferson said, "If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy."

I fear that our willingness to allow our government, which remember is merely an extension of ourselves and our own personal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, to step in and confiscate more and more personal property (taxes) is proof that we are crossing a perilous line. John Adams said, "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist." (Quoted from Charles Francis Adams, The Works of John Adams, 10 Volumes, Little, Brown and Company, Boston, 1850-1856, 6:9, 280, italics added)

Next time you hear the government propose to tax an individual group--regardless of the reasoning behind it or the beneficiary of it, remember, as soon as we begin appropriating property in an effort to "equalize things" we are allowing our government to exercise a right that we do not have as individuals and therefore cannot grant as individuals to our government which is merely an extension of our own personal rights. Also remember, it starts small and grows from there. As soon as a large group of people decide to take from a smaller group for whatever reason we are opening the door for this to happen more and more often. Think on it--next time you may be part of the smaller group being taken from.

The Benefit of Property

In closing, I would like to urge you to remember the following that was said by our great president, Abraham Lincoln.

"Property is the fruit of labor. Property is desirable, is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. . . . I don't believe in a law to prevent a man from getting rich; it would do more harm than good."

The only way to stop the grand theft which is being perpetrated by our government leaders is to make your voice heard. Please call your Senator and your Representative every time you see an abuse of power. Let your voice be heard before it grows too late. Remember, today it may just be such and such group that doesn't affect you at all. Tomorrow, you may be part of the minority being used to support the majority's whims.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Right-To-Property
 
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Nonsense.

As everyone knows, and by "everyone" I mean a loose interpretation of Cornell Law and Locke (since they are the only legitimate sources on the issue), all property belongs to the State, you have no right to property of any kind.

You gave up ALL your rights when you chose to remain a part of society, that is the social contract. Want to have individual Rights? Hmmm? Then go live by yourself in the mountains or something.

The Government is your lord and master, you have no rights but those which government grants you by law. Since your rights can be created or destroyed by the whim of government, you should get on your knees, daily, and grovel at the feet of government for being so magnamous and beneficent as allow you any rights at all.

So you think the paycheck you earned from busting your hump 40+ hours a week is rightfully yours? Hmmm? You're completely wrong!

Everything you think you own and earn, belongs to the government. It is the divine right of government, not the individual, to do with it's property as it sees fit. Rather than complaining about how much government takes in taxes you should be eternally grateful government leaves you lowly serfs so much as a crumb, much less the lions share of what rightfully belongs to the government.

I just wanted to write Numinus's reply before he had a chance to. :)
 
Nonsense.

As everyone knows, and by "everyone" I mean a loose interpretation of Cornell Law and Locke (since they are the only legitimate sources on the issue), all property belongs to the State, you have no right to property of any kind.

You gave up ALL your rights when you chose to remain a part of society, that is the social contract. Want to have individual Rights? Hmmm? Then go live by yourself in the mountains or something.

The Government is your lord and master, you have no rights but those which government grants you by law. Since your rights can be created or destroyed by the whim of government, you should get on your knees, daily, and grovel at the feet of government for being so magnamous and beneficent as allow you any rights at all.

So you think the paycheck you earned from busting your hump 40+ hours a week is rightfully yours? Hmmm? You're completely wrong!

Everything you think you own and earn, belongs to the government. It is the divine right of government, not the individual, to do with it's property as it sees fit. Rather than complaining about how much government takes in taxes you should be eternally grateful government leaves you lowly serfs so much as a crumb, much less the lions share of what rightfully belongs to the government.

I just wanted to write Numinus's reply before he had a chance to. :)

I don't think Numinus was doing anything of the sort. As I understand his posts, he is asserting property rights are NOT inalienable rights.
 
I don't think Numinus was doing anything of the sort. As I understand his posts, he is asserting property rights are NOT inalienable rights.
I understand his argument: Because property can be alienated, i.e. transferred from one to another, the Right to Property is not an inalienable right.

It's a bogus argument because it is the legal privilege over the property itself, and not the Individual Right to Property, that is being transferred. It is only the legal privilege over that specific property that is being alienated, not the Individual Right. Both the buyer and seller already have, and retain, their Individual Right to Property. The seller does not lose his Individual Right to Property as a result of the sale, he only gives up his legal rights over the specific property in question.

Now, Liberty is listed among the inalienable rights, so lets look at what Numinus has said regarding Liberty:

Numinus: The terms of the social contract is clear -- an individual SURRENDERS his entire will in favor of the state.

Dr.Who: Entire?

Numinus: Correct -- entire. He then gets back those liberties which are necessary for his peaceable existence.
Numinus claims here that we transfer ALL our liberty to the State who then transfers back the liberties which it deems necessary. Such a transfer would mean that Liberty is an alienable Right...

Gipper, do you believe Liberty to be an alienable, or inalienable right?

How about the Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression, Freedom of Thought? Surely you believe those Rights to be inalienable...

When you post here on the forums, you are exercising each one of those Rights, you form a thought and express it through words you type out on the screen. The moment you click "Submit Reply", you transfer your thoughts, your speech, your expression, across the internet to everyone who reads your post.

Anytime you communicate with others a transfer takes place, your thoughts, speech, and expressions are all alienated (transferred) from you to another. Do you take that to mean the Freedoms of Speech, Expression, and Thought are alienable rights?

You see, whether you are transferring your property, your thoughts, your speech, or your expressions to another, you are NOT transferring your Individual Rights to those things but merely exercising those rights, and in the process, transferring any products which may result from exercising those rights.

I'm sure where Numinus seems to make the most sense is where he's talking about Statutory Rights, i.e. "Rights" created by Government through Laws. This is where I believe the term "Rights" has been corrupted and leads to the Equivocation fallacy of using a broad term to an unstated specific inference.

What we have to deal with are two very different concepts that share the same term of "Rights". First we have Natural Rights (Individual Rights), they cannot be created, regulated or destroyed, they simply exist regardless of the actions, or inaction, of government. Individual Rights are strictly limited to those Rights which do not infringe upon the Rights of others.

Then we have Statutory "Rights" which are created, regulated, and destroyed by Laws, they do not exist in the absence of government. Statutory "Rights" have no limitations whatsoever, they can, by law, violate the rights of one individual or all individuals and any number of individuals in between.

It is for this reason that I refer to legitimate Rights as Individual Rights and all other so called "Rights" as legal privileges, to prevent anyone from confusing the two very different concepts due to the generic term of "Rights" being inappropriately applied to both.

This confusion is further complicated by using the generic term "Property" when speaking of at least three distinct concepts, Land, Personal Possessions, and Intellectual Property. The first two are forms of physical, tangible, property while the the last is a form of intangible property.

Now back to Numinus's claim that the Right to Property is a product of Law rather than an Individual Right.

The law dictates that there be a physical document declaring ownership of the property in question, we'll use a parcel of land as an example. This parcel of land, by law, has a deed which lists the lawful owner(s) of the property. It is this piece of paper which changes hands during a transfer of ownership from one to another. Just as the seller is not physically transporting a chunk of land from one area to another, the seller is not transferring his Right to Property from himself to another.

What the seller is transferring is a piece of paper which, by law, declares legal ownership of that parcel of land to another owner. It is the law which dictates how that transfer takes place and what the owner can legally do with the land. Numinus refers to these as "Property Rights" but, because they are contingent on Law, I refer to them as legal privileges.

Your Individual Right to Property can be exercised in many of the same ways you can exercise your Right to Free Speech. Where your property is concerned you have the Right to sell it, give it away, use it, destroy it, do nothing with it, and many other options as well. Just as choosing to exercise your Right to Free Speech does not eliminate your Individual Right to Free Speech, choosing to exercise your Right to Property by doing any one of those things does NOT eliminate your Individual Right to Property.

Such a transfer only eliminates your Legal Privileges over that particular piece of land. Legally, that parcel of land now belongs to someone else who can exercise their Individual Right to Property by selling it, giving it away, destroying it, etc.

So once again I'll reiterate the beginning of my post:

I understand Numinus's argument. It's a bogus argument because it is the legal privilege over the property itself, and not the Individual Right to Property, that is being transferred.

I know that was more than most people care to read but anyone who truly wishes to understand my point of view on the subject should put forth the effort.

I fully understand Numinus's point of view, I just ardently disagree with it.
 
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The formatting was not perfect in the OP. For those of you that missed it three authors were quoted by one other.

I found it interesting that two of the founding fathers quoted took it for granted that the powers of the state are extensions of the individuals rights. i.e. the state can only do that which it must to protect individual rights.

They were clear that all our rights are intertwined. Without one right the others are at risk.

If you value free speech, free association, and the right to sleep with whomever you want then to protect your rights you must protect all other rights too. Additionally, the right to keep property is a protection of the right to acquire property. And the rights of the rich to keep and acquire property protect the rights of the poor to keep and acquire property.

Every single person who says that wealth should be taken from the rich are jeapardizing the rights of the poor to acquire property. If you say that the state can deprive one person of a right you diminish all rights not just the one. And if you say that the state can deprive one person of a right without due process then you hve really opened pandoras box.
 
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