The Miracle of Government Schools - Cheating Teachers

[ProudLefty]

Looking at Rick's (and yours) past record, I would imagine that many people here, mods or not, feel that what you refer to as "all out D-Day frontal assault by the Lefties" is very mild by comparison, and that NO ONE attacks either of you when you refrain from attacking posters, especially new ones, and bragging about chasing posters (Pepper, and me, if I let you intimidate me) away.

I wonder how many new members were repulse by those insults and attacks and decided that this forum is not for them?

Can't you decide, once and for all, that it is better to debate or to ignore rather than continue attacks? You know, it is pretty easy for anyone interested to follow a thread from it's source, and make a sound judgement of what happen to derail it into meaningless fights.

Good points. It is apparently normal in some circles for the resident drag queen to be biitchslappin' new arrivals to the party. Where I come from though, drag queens wait to be introduced before they make their sexual advances on a new guest.

 

[Rick]

Gee whiz, are the moderators looking at this all-out D-Day frontal assault by the lefties against Rick?

Oh, by the way, I really respect the great job that the moderators do. They have a really tough job, and they are the greatest, because I too used to be a moderator, and I know what a tough job it can be (if bootlicking and butt kissing works for a certain lefty in this forum, I figure I may as well try it too).

I couldn't care less, TruthSeeker. The guy is just another obamabot, showing up with a bag full the usual slogans and talking-points-for-idiots. It would be really great if we could get a leftwinger with intellect around here so we could have real debates.

 

[ProudLefty]

I couldn't care less, TruthSeeker. The guy is just another obamabot, showing up with a bag full the usual slogans and talking-points-for-idiots. It would be really great if we could get a leftwinger with intellect around here so we could have real debates.

So, in your opinion, derailing a thread is intelligent debate? That scatology degree didn't teach you logic?

Can we get back on topic? Education for everyone is a relatively new concept. Maybe 150 years old at most. That general education came about through government schools and gave America a head start over most other countries. It surprises me to see a generality, such as this thread's topic, that ignores the great successes of government schools and focuses on a few failures that are easily correctable if we would focus on the fixing the problem instead of focusing on hatred.

 

[Rick]

Uh, back to the OP. Why are teachers in government schools so terrified of universal privatization? I see three basic reasons:

1. Like most leftwingers, most have never held a real job in their lives. They've never been employed in a context where they have to make good, or hit the bricks. Never gotten paid based on performance. This is what's faced by 90% of the working population, but not them.

2. Corollary to number 1, they fear the labor market. They have low self-esteem because they know they've never really competed - their pay is not a reward for a job well done, but more like a welfare check.

3. They know that most of them are HUGELY overpaid - they know that in a free labor market for educators, they would be paid what they're worth. There ARE some good teachers who teach in the government semi-monopoly - most people can remember those few good teachers - they would probably make MUCH MORE money, but it's the time-serving drones which perpetuate the current system.

 

[ProudLefty]

Uh, back to the OP. Why are teachers in government schools so terrified of universal privatization? I see three basic reasons:

1. Like most leftwingers, most have never held a real job in their lives. They've never been employed in a context where they have to make good, or hit the bricks. Never gotten paid based on performance. This is what's faced by 90% of the working population, but not them.

2. Corollary to number 1, they fear the labor market. They have low self-esteem because they know they've never really competed - their pay is not a reward for a job well done, but more like a welfare check.

3. They know that most of them are HUGELY overpaid - they know that in a free labor market for educators, they would be paid what they're worth. There ARE some good teachers who teach in the government semi-monopoly - most people can remember those few good teachers - they would probably make MUCH MORE money, but it's the time-serving drones which perpetuate the current system.

Have you any sources, studies, or documentation to back up your assertions? My personal experience is quite different than yours.

Most teachers I know have worked in the private sector to work their way through school, or later as part time help to try to make ends meet on a very tight salary, and in summers to make a little extra.

Teachers have low self esteem? You believe that "those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"? Sounds like what those teachers need is some good self-esteem building, eh? That, by the way, is one of the real benefits of unions. So, if you meant what you said, you would be in favor of teacher unions.

As to teachers being hugely overpaid...? I have no idea how to respond to that. What do you believe is an appropriate salary for teachers? I am totally unaware of overpaid teachers. I am aware of over paid administrators, but not overpaid teachers. Perhaps you would have some sources for that?

 

[TruthSeeker]

Have you any sources, studies, or documentation to back up your assertions? My personal experience is quite different than yours.

Most teachers I know have worked in the private sector to work their way through school, or later as part time help to try to make ends meet on a very tight salary, and in summers to make a little extra.

Teachers have low self esteem? You believe that "those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"? Sounds like what those teachers need is some good self-esteem building, eh? That, by the way, is one of the real benefits of unions. So, if you meant what you said, you would be in favor of teacher unions.

As to teachers being hugely overpaid...? I have no idea how to respond to that. What do you believe is an appropriate salary for teachers? I am totally unaware of overpaid teachers. I am aware of over paid administrators, but not overpaid teachers. Perhaps you would have some sources for that?

And ProudLefty will be happy to supply sources and links to everything he has stated on this topic. Right, ProudLefty? ProudLefty, are you here?

 

[ProudLefty]

And ProudLefty will be happy to supply sources and links to everything he has stated on this topic. Right, ProudLefty? ProudLefty, are you here?

TruthSeeker, go ahead. What assertions did I make and not back up? I call BS. Put up or retract the slam.

 

[TruthSeeker]

TruthSeeker, go ahead. What assertions did I make and not back up? I call BS. Put up or retract the slam.

The more difficult question is.............what "assertions" have you made that you DID back up?

You're trying to play with the "big boys" now, grasshopper. If you want to continue to play the "insult" game, you've come to the right place. Many of us in here eat marshmallows like you for lunch.

Put away your cap guns, "podna", saddle up your plastic horse, and have your mommy push you out of town, or stay until your 30-day contract is up, whichever comes first.

 

[Rick]

Have you any sources, studies, or documentation to back up your assertions? My personal experience is quite different than yours.

Most teachers I know have worked in the private sector to work their way through school, or later as part time help to try to make ends meet on a very tight salary, and in summers to make a little extra.

Teachers have low self esteem? You believe that "those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"? Sounds like what those teachers need is some good self-esteem building, eh? That, by the way, is one of the real benefits of unions. So, if you meant what you said, you would be in favor of teacher unions.

As to teachers being hugely overpaid...? I have no idea how to respond to that. What do you believe is an appropriate salary for teachers? I am totally unaware of overpaid teachers. I am aware of over paid administrators, but not overpaid teachers. Perhaps you would have some sources for that?

Secondary teachers salaries for a range of cities in near-bankrupt california. This is for nine months work, and they also get a defined-benefit pension, almost unheard of any more in the private sector:

•Los Angeles/Long Beach/Glendale: $63,370
•Oakland/Fremont/Hayward: $64,630
•Sacramento/Arden-Arcade/Roseville: $59,050
•San Francisco/San Mateo/Redwood City: $64,100
•Santa Ana/Anaheim/Irvine: $73,890


http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/california.html

Median US salary: $46,300.

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/article/average-salary-in-us/15200316/income.aspx

 

[ProudLefty]

Secondary teachers salaries for a range of cities in near-bankrupt california. This is for nine months work, and they also get a defined-benefit pension, almost unheard of any more in the private sector:

•Los Angeles/Long Beach/Glendale: $63,370
•Oakland/Fremont/Hayward: $64,630
•Sacramento/Arden-Arcade/Roseville: $59,050
•San Francisco/San Mateo/Redwood City: $64,100
•Santa Ana/Anaheim/Irvine: $73,890


http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/california.html

Median US salary: $46,300.

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/article/average-salary-in-us/15200316/income.aspx

You are kidding, right? This is your response?!?! You believe college educated employees should be paid average wages?

But more to the point, you cherry picked your data. Using your link, I find

• US average of $46,300 for everyone
• US average of $40,000 for teachers

So, please, try this again, using legitimate statistical methods.

As to your assertion of a 9 month school year for teachers? Where does that happen?

Also you fail to mention that generally teachers are expected to pay for their own job skills training. Do you know any other profession on Earth where the employee is expected to pay his own way to conferences and training sessions? And to do it on his own time, off the clock?!

I believe that you heartily believe your assertions. I am just trying to come to terms with how you arrived at your conclusions, as any facts I can find say to me to believe otherwise.

 

[Rick]

You are kidding, right? This is your response?!?! You believe college educated employees should be paid average wages?

The college education of teachers is a joke. When I was working on my physics degree, I'd sit in some of their classes for a laugh - stuff like whiteboard pointer techniques. The leftwing has utterly degraded lots of what college used to be, with their grade inflation, low standards, "affirmative action", and various half-assed "studies" departments.

But more to the point, you cherry picked your data. Using your link, I find

• US average of $46,300 for everyone
• US average of $40,000 for teachers

So you think teachers of, say, fifth grade should be compared to rocket scientists, engineers, corporate heads, and all kinds of real jobs?

As to your assertion of a 9 month school year for teachers? Where does that happen?

Everywhere!

Also you fail to mention that generally teachers are expected to pay for their own job skills training. Do you know any other profession on Earth where the employee is expected to pay his own way to conferences and training sessions? And to do it on his own time, off the clock?!

Just about every job.

Calif teachers also generally get immensely valuable paid health care after retirement, and I see you're ducking the pension issue. try again, Sparky.

 

[ProudLefty]

The college education of teachers is a joke. When I was working on my physics degree, I'd sit in some of their classes for a laugh - stuff like whiteboard pointer techniques. The leftwing has utterly degraded lots of what college used to be, with their grade inflation, low standards, "affirmative action", and various half-assed "studies" departments.



So you think teachers of, say, fifth grade should be compared to rocket scientists, engineers, corporate heads, and all kinds of real jobs?



Everywhere!



Just about every job.

Calif teachers also generally get immensely valuable paid health care after retirement, and I see you're ducking the pension issue. try again, Sparky.

Ah yes, the obligatory insult. A Rick post isn't complete without it.

btw, I call BS on your education claims. I stand with my 10th grade guess about your education.
I asked specific questions and you answered with general answers with no source beyond your keyboard.

For instance, here school teachers are in school almost to June and are back in school in early August.

The pension issue is the tradeoff teachers accepted for their low salaries.

So, try again.

With love,
from Sparky.

 

[Rick]

Ah yes, the obligatory insult. A Rick post isn't complete without it.

btw, I call BS on your education claims. I stand with my 10th grade guess about your education.

Anyone see any inconsistency there?

I asked specific questions and you answered with general answers with no source beyond your keyboard.

Now, everyone go back and look at the links I posted for Sparky.

For instance, here school teachers are in school almost to June and are back in school in early August.

OK, I'll play your silly-ass game - they work ten months as opposed to everyone else's 12 months.

The pension issue is the tradeoff teachers accepted for their low salaries.

LOW SALARIES?????? For most of them, if they paid them what they're worth, they get a third of the pay. Now look up the recent TIMSS scores Sparky, and see how the results they're producing stack up against the rest of the industrialized world.

 

[Openmind]

Have you any sources, studies, or documentation to back up your assertions? My personal experience is quite different than yours.

Most teachers I know have worked in the private sector to work their way through school, or later as part time help to try to make ends meet on a very tight salary, and in summers to make a little extra.

Teachers have low self esteem? You believe that "those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"? Sounds like what those teachers need is some good self-esteem building, eh? That, by the way, is one of the real benefits of unions. So, if you meant what you said, you would be in favor of teacher unions.

As to teachers being hugely overpaid...? I have no idea how to respond to that. What do you believe is an appropriate salary for teachers? I am totally unaware of overpaid teachers. I am aware of over paid administrators, but not overpaid teachers. Perhaps you would have some sources for that?

Very good answer! Thank you.

 

[Rick]

Very good answer! Thank you.

Going to ignore my biitchslapping rebuttal? Don't blame you.