The Patroit Act works in Germany as well!!

jb_1430

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You are demonstrating my point. Nothing youve stated even attempts to support your claim that the Patriot act is

empowering the government to randomly monitor and search individuals without warrant,


Did you just return from Mars? U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero barred the FBI from invoking a portion of the law in the future, saying the mandatory gag orders amount to an "unconstitutional prior restraint of speech in violation of the First Amendment."
This is not the first rebuff related to the Patriot Act that the Bush administration has encountered. In June, the U.S. Supreme Court said that prisoners held in Guantanamo Bay can ask American judges to review their confinement--a blow to Bush's assertion that "enemy combatants" can be held indefinitely without judicial review.
Last year, the U.S. House of Representatives voted 309 to 118 for legislation that would essentially block part of the Patriot Act that permitted law enforcement officials to seek a court order that would let them surreptitiously enter a home or business.

How long will it be before we see Republican Brown Shirts, with no warrants, roaming the streets kicking in doors , political protesters disappearing without a trace, and people with conflicting points of view being locked up without due process?

Any document that goes against First Amendment rights and takes away our freedoms is simply a fascist document that takes power from the people and gives it to a select few. The only "rights" that this government pays attention to are the rights accompanied by the obligatory noun, wing.
 
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Popeye

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You are demonstrating my point. Nothing youve stated even attempts to support your claim that the Patriot act is

Oh no, you must be right, it's a document just chock full of civil liberties. Excuse us for even daring to criticize what has obviously become a conservative bible.
 

Reliant

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Oh no, you must be right, it's a document just chock full of civil liberties. Excuse us for even daring to criticize what has obviously become a conservative bible.

Yes, chock full of Civil Liberties. :D

Section 215....

* Section 215 allows the FBI to order any person or entity to turn over "any tangible things," so long as the FBI "specifies" that the order is "for an authorized investigation . . . to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."
* Section 215 vastly expands the FBI's power to spy on ordinary people living in the United States, including United States citizens and permanent residents.
- The FBI need not show probable cause, nor even reasonable grounds to believe, that the person whose records it seeks is engaged in criminal activity.
- The FBI need not have any suspicion that the subject of the investigation is a foreign power or agent of a foreign power.
- The FBI can investigate United States persons based in part on their exercise of First Amendment rights, and it can investigate non-United States persons based solely on their exercise of First Amendment rights.

For example, the FBI could spy on a person because they don't like the books she reads, or because they don't like the web sites she visits. They could spy on her because she wrote a letter to the editor that criticized government policy.
- Those served with Section 215 orders are prohibited from disclosing the fact to anyone else. Those who are the subjects of the surveillance are never notified that their privacy has been compromised.
If the government had been keeping track of what books a person had been reading, or what web sites she had been visiting, the person would never know.

Is Section 215 Constitutional?

* Normally, the government cannot effect a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime. Section 215 violates the Fourth Amendment by allowing the government to effect Fourth Amendment searches without a warrant and without showing probable cause.
- The violation of the Fourth Amendment is made more egregious by the fact that Section 215 might be used to obtain information about the exercise of First Amendment rights. For example, the FBI could invoke Section 215 to require a library to produce records showing who had borrowed a particular book or to produce records showing who had visited a particular web site.
- Section 215 might also be used to obtain material that implicates privacy interests other than those protected by the First Amendment. For example, the FBI could use Section 215 to obtain medical records.
* The provision violates the First Amendment by prohibiting those served with Section 215 orders from disclosing that fact to others, even where there is no real need for secrecy.
* The provision violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to investigate U.S. persons, including American citizens, based in part on their exercise of First Amendment activity, and by authorizing the FBI to investigate non-U.S. persons based solely on their exercise of First Amendment activity.
* The provision violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments by failing to require that those who are the subject of Section 215 orders be told that their privacy has been compromised.


There is no doubt that this is a fascist (noun - 1. an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views) document that violates First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendment Rights and is certainly something we should all reject on principle alone. But if you give it a name like "Patriot" Act, even though it goes against everything a true Patriot stands for, just proves that the right-wing monkeys don't look at substance, they just like the name.


And yes, mistakes are being made and Americans are paying the price...

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/10/america/NA-GEN-US-Patriot-Act-Lawsuit.php

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9546933

http://www.nysun.com/article/50252
 

jb_1430

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USMC the Almighty

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If your going to go to the trouble of posting 3 different links, might as well post a link to the source of everything in the post.

http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/215.html

Now if you were a liberal, you could claim that the facts aren't true simply because they come from a biased source. But as a conservative, I would expect that you would try to defeat them on an intellectual level.
 

Popeye

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Now if you were a liberal, you could claim that the facts aren't true simply because they come from a biased source. But as a conservative, I would expect that you would try to defeat them on an intellectual level.

An intelligent conservative? Outside of a few exceptions, that is, without a doubt, an oxymoron.
 

USMC the Almighty

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An intelligent conservative? Outside of a few exceptions, that is, without a doubt, an oxymoron.

Come on, you can't really believe this. First I'm told that political ideology corresponds to your sexual preferences and now it has correlation to your intelligence? There are plenty of smart conservatives (Thomas Jefferson comes to mind) and dumb liberals and vice versa. I wouldn't necessarily call one side "smarter" than the other.
 

jb_1430

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Now if you were a liberal, you could claim that the facts aren't true simply because they come from a biased source. But as a conservative, I would expect that you would try to defeat them on an intellectual level.

It was claimed that the patriot act is

empowering the government to randomly monitor and search individuals without warrant,

Section 215 refers to
order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

and has nothing to do with the power to randomly monitor and search individuals without warrant.


SEC. 215. ACCESS TO RECORDS AND OTHER ITEMS UNDER THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT.
Title V of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1861 et seq.) is amended by striking sections 501 through 503 and inserting the following:

`SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--

`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
`(b) Each application under this section--

`(1) shall be made to--
`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or
`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and
`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.

`(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).

`(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.

`(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context.

`SEC. 502. CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT.
`(a) On a semiannual basis, the Attorney General shall fully inform the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate concerning all requests for the production of tangible things under section 402.

`(b) On a semiannual basis, the Attorney General shall provide to the Committees on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Senate a report setting forth with respect to the preceding 6-month period--

`(1) the total number of applications made for orders approving requests for the production of tangible things under section 402; and
`(2) the total number of such orders either granted, modified, or denied.'.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
 

Popeye

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Come on, you can't really believe this. First I'm told that political ideology corresponds to your sexual preferences and now it has correlation to your intelligence? There are plenty of smart conservatives (Thomas Jefferson comes to mind) and dumb liberals and vice versa. I wouldn't necessarily call one side "smarter" than the other.

I said that there were exceptions, but conservatives, by definition, are closed minded. This, most definitely, is a reflection on their overall intelligence.
 

jb_1430

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I said that there were exceptions, but conservatives, by definition, are closed minded. This, most definitely, is a reflection on their overall intelligence.

Conservatives have a value system they can and do use to judge the world around them. Liberals are awash in a sea of moral relativism that does not judge right from wrong, good or bad. Its called judgement, not closed minded.
 

Popeye

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Conservatives have a value system they can and do use to judge the world around them. Liberals are awash in a sea of moral relativism that does not judge right from wrong, good or bad. Its called judgement, not closed minded.

Yeah, that's quite a value system all right, and it's not called judgment, it's called judging, conservatives are quite good at that. Conservatives ought to look in the mirror, when it comes to morals. Good morals are not found in a bathroom stall, and then lying about it afterwards. Nor are they found in an immoral war which was also lied about. Yes, conservatives have quite a value system, makes one want to sing God Bless America.
 

palerider

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Conservatives have a value system they can and do use to judge the world around them. Liberals are awash in a sea of moral relativism that does not judge right from wrong, good or bad. Its called judgement, not closed minded.


Meaning that liberals do not refer to experience, historical perspective, or common sense before taking an action. That is why liberals are the kings of unintended consequences. Do you need examples?

Conservatives are eager for change if the changes make sense. Shrinking the size of government, for example, or getting it off our backs and out of our pockets is a change that most conservatives would eagerly accept if it were done in a logical and methodical manner.
 

palerider

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Yeah, that's quite a value system all right, and it's not called judgment, it's called judging, conservatives are quite good at that. Conservatives ought to look in the mirror, when it comes to morals. Good morals are not found in a bathroom stall, and then lying about it afterwards. Nor are they found in an immoral war which was also lied about. Yes, conservatives have quite a value system, makes one want to sing God Bless America.


If you are under the impression that the actions of a single individual accurately depict the entire group, let me remind you of gerry studds having a sexual relationship with a minor and subsequently getting a standing applause from his collegues on the floor of the house.

You will note that conservatives send theis packing when they are found out in such behavior as there is no place for it within conservativism as opposed to liberals who embrace theirs. Your moral relativism requires that you embrace and welcome an unrepentant child molseter back into the fold.
 
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Popeye

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If you are under the impression that the actions of a single individual accurately depict the entire group, let me remind you of gerry studds having a sexual relationship with a minor and subsequently getting a standing applause from his collegues on the floor of the house.

You will note that conservatives send theis packing when they are found out in such behavior as there is no place for it within conservativism as opposed to liberals who embrace theirs. Your moral relativism requires that you embrace and welcome an unrepentant child molseter back into the fold.

First off, Republican sexual indiscretions involve much more than a single individual. As you know, Reliant supplied an extensive list, which could not be refuted. As for Republicans sending their right-wing perverts "packing", I think we both know that is purely for political reasons and not a true indication of the darkness that resides within many "family values" Republican hearts.
 
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