Think We Don't Need Health Care Reform?

[Greco]

"Doesn't the FDA already test all drugs regardless, why make a special case for children? "

That's a logical assumption, flawed but logical. Do a quick Google search on what happened to the FDA during the Bush years. Use Google to find out what happened to speeding up entry to the market of drugs still going through tests. On and on. Many of those changes are still in force, and have yet to be corrected insuring pharmaceutical safety.

 

[Dr.Who]

"Doesn't the FDA already test all drugs regardless, why make a special case for children? "

That's a logical assumption, flawed but logical. Do a quick Google search on what happened to the FDA during the Bush years. Use Google to find out what happened to speeding up entry to the market of drugs still going through tests. On and on. Many of those changes are still in force, and have yet to be corrected insuring pharmaceutical safety.

Somehow I suspect that speeding up the time from conception to market is not just an f.P. Bush ideal. After all I am sure that democrats also want to save lives with new drugs.

 

[GenSeneca]

Because liberals have the moral high ground on this issue, compared to the "I've got mine and you don't deserve yours" crowd.

First, you guys are no Liberals. Collectivist Progressives (Anti-Liberals) for sure, but you're no Liberals.

Secondly, you hold the immoral low ground... Its not compassionate, much less moral, to use governments monopoly on force to redistribute wealth.

Lastly, we aren't saying "I've got mine and you don't deserve yours", we're saying "We EARNED ours, through hard work and responsible choices, you have the same opportunity to live responsibly, work hard, and earn yours too."

 

[pocketfullofshells]

First, you guys are no Liberals. Collectivist Progressives (Anti-Liberals) for sure, but you're no Liberals.

Secondly, you hold the immoral low ground... Its not compassionate, much less moral, to use governments monopoly on force to redistribute wealth.

Lastly, we aren't saying "I've got mine and you don't deserve yours", we're saying "We EARNED ours, through hard work and responsible choices, you have the same opportunity to live responsibly, work hard, and earn yours too."

and tomorrow when you get laid off threw no fault of your own, you can die in the street, because I earned mine, you did not...its a bull**** idea that somehow you earned health care, and others have not. I worked 60-70 hours a week and had no health care. I went to school and worked to pay for it at same time. I had no health care. I guess working 2 jobs and or going to school is not doing enough to be able to go see a dr when I need one and not have to file bankruptcy. My friend works her ass off, has health coverage, and she can still hardly cover the cost of her meds and ER trips let alone surgery she got and other bills that have pilled up. But I guess she earned them since she decided to go and get a sickness that you cant just cure. But if threw budget cuts lost her job, I am sure alot of other places will be looking for a her help because they all want someone who is sick and needs flexibility to work with with it...and if she gets insurance...she can just hope they are so kind as to pay for her pre existing condition..


such a great system we have...but its ok you earned it ( for now) and the rest are not worth giving health care to.

 

[top gun]

and tomorrow when you get laid off threw no fault of your own, you can die in the street, because I earned mine, you did not...its a bull****...

such a great system we have...but its ok you earned it ( for now) and the rest are not worth giving health care to.

It's amazing... ironic... isn't it that the vast majority of those who preach for basically unregulated capitalism and no social safety nets are too blind to see that the vast majority of them would not make the standard they think they would should that happen again and they'd be in the "serf" pool.

THE ROBBER BARON MENTALITY

Obviously, we should never condemn the psychologically and spiritually healthy men and women who realize early in life that they have something valuable in the way of intelligence, determination, wealth, ambition, strength or courage to serve society through a sound quid pro quo. There is very little to be gained by becoming a contrarian. The old Rotary motto, whoever serves best, profits most, seems fair enough. Nevertheless, it has become painfully obvious that many anxious and confused Americans have either grown greedy or have been seriously brain washed by the incessant propaganda of the robber barons and their clever spin doctors. Some very powerful and very selfish persons are steering the American Republic toward isolation from the rest of the world and a suicidal collapse. From culturally neurotic anxiety, which Frank Herbert called the little death -- to the major self-deception that Ernest Becker named the ultimate human lie -- to the narcissistic yearning to steal everything valuable which spiritual leaders call the besetting sin, a clutch of narcissistic robber barons have chosen to sacrifice America and its people to their own ruthless greed.

Normal men and women, those who choose to live at peace with the world and share the benefits of cooperative toil, are usually psychologically and spiritually healthy enough to reject greedy ideologies and narcissistic evil. They are at peace with themselves. Emotionally mature souls who are mature enough to embrace persons of different races, cultures and classes, don’t need delusions of their own cosmic grandeur in order to feel a modicum of self-esteem. Maturing citizens understand that free and independent souls are nurtured largely by the spiritual, political and financial health of their societies. As a result, more and more thoughtful Americans are fearful and resentful of the ruthless schemes now being orchestrated by our new age robber barons. We hate the way that a few ruthless souls are ravaging the American middle class, dominating the world‘s wealth and fighting endless preemptive wars in which our sons and daughters are slain to gain obscene wealth and power for a few. Honest patriots, as opposed to flag waving frauds with their wicked agendas, despair of our Republic’s collapse into an American Empire consisting of a few wealthy lords and ladies and a majority of poorly paid plebes for whom blood, toil, tears and sweat form their daily fare.

Obviously, the United States isn’t the first affluent society to self-destruct for the benefit of a ruthless financial, political and religious aristocracy. Of the twenty-two civilizations that left their footprints on the earth, all but two collapsed from their rigid ideologies and destructive myths and the escalating realization of their ordinary people that the meager rewards of their labors weren’t worth the effort needed to win them. The Roman Republic was destroyed by the robber barons of its day, who then held their possessions, power and privileges so tightly that their rigid Empire couldn’t survive when the barbarians came to pillage. Roman slaves, such as Spartacus, then picked up their pitchforks and torches and joined the invaders. Of course, when push comes to shove, there is usually a lean and hungry society waiting in the wings. Our founding patriots patterned the American system after the Roman Republic with added elements from Greek democracy. And because they were cognizant of the dangers posed by the relentless greed of a narcissistic and neurotic minority, the founders developed a system of checks and balances that has now been overturned by our own robber barons and their ruthless vassals. Our anxieties and the existential frustrations that follow, along with the universal human need to blame someone besides ourselves for society’s problems, aren’t the result of fate. Neither are they God’s punishment for enacting gender and civil rights laws to empower women and minorities as many fundamental religious neurotics preach and hate radio bigots rage.

The wicked new American Empire is being created by a cruel cabal of twenty-first century neo-fascist robber barons, no more in number than a single Boeing 747 could carry on a single flight. They are being assisted by their reactionary neo-con politicians and fundamental neo-zealot preachers.

Existential psychotherapists and philosophers consistently see deep pain, paranoia, rage and aggression simmering within the souls of narcissistic or neurotic persons. Karen Thompson, in her book THE WAR FOR GOD, revealed quite clearly the ego wounds and frustrations swirling within the unconscious aspects of seriously reactionary and fundamental manipulators. The life-long mantra of narcissistic abusers, including virtually all the robber barons currently creating a ruthless American Empire.

This is something the World Bank with its grandiose schemes for enriching a few robber barons ignored until forced to follow along. Bank executives always find it more cost effective to finance a consortium of generals, aristocrats and politicians that corners a nation’s traditional water supply and then sells a trickle back to the farmers for half of their annual income. And then they wonder why the peasants come, as Pat Buchanan said, over the hill with torches and pitchforks. Which is what world terrorism is all about and why it is increasing steadily in the era of Global Capitalism.

It is obvious that American governance has fallen into the hands of the narcissistic triad of robber barons, reactionary politicians and fundamental and orthodox clergy who betray society by obsessively serving their own interests. The ultimate selfish ideology that leads to greedy consumerism, the fall of the middle class, the death of the Republic and potentially fatal environmental disasters was found initially in the seminal THE WEALTH OF NATIONS from the eighteenth century. It can be summed up this way.

When every selfish person or organization subordinates morals and ethics to net worth, when every ruthless power broker and narcissistic manipulator insists that greed is good and rips everything valuable from weaker persons and from the earth itself, when companies, governments and political parties take every advantage of each subordinate, leaving the people with only enough of the profits of production to survive and to work ever harder without retirement programs, social security, medical care, good schooling and decent housing, the wonderful free market magic starts working.

In some miraculous manner, perhaps like the loaves and fishes Jesus blessed, everyone benefits from countless ruthless abuses. We can destroy the middle class goose that produced the golden eggs through its vast purchasing power but society shall continue to prosper because the robber barons and their narcissistic vassals will still be affluent, prestigious, and privileged.

Jard and Roberta DeVille

 

[GenSeneca]

the rest are not worth giving health care to.

If its so important to you, if its a "moral imperative" to provide HC for complete strangers, then nothing is stopping you from digging deep in your own wallet, shelling out the money necessary to pay for their HC costs, and giving them what they need.

Of course we've been over this before... You don't feel any obligation to do so on a personal level through charity. You only see it as a moral imperative for Government to use its monopoly on force to take from one group in order to "provide" for another and you consider that a compassionate position on your part.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." - James Madison

Your position is not compassionate, it is not constitutional, and it is not moral.

those who preach for basically unregulated capitalism and no social safety nets...

...Are talking about it on the FEDERAL level. As per their rights in the constitution, I have no problem with individual states choosing to become progressive socialist Utopia's (like Michigan) complete with safety nets and a collectivist economic system... So long as the Federal Government is barred from bailing out such failed states for their self inflicted damage and don't redistribute wealth from responsible states to the irresponsible ones.

Collectivism doesn't work. Its an immoral system that glorifies the sacrifice of value and places the state, and "society", above the individual. Whether its an individual or an entire nation, its simply not possible to sacrifice your way to prosperity any more than its possible to spend your way out of debt - Yet this is the collectivist doctrine known as altruism.

 

[top gun]

...Are talking about it on the FEDERAL level. As per their rights in the constitution, I have no problem with individual states choosing to become progressive socialist Utopia's (like Michigan) complete with safety nets and a collectivist economic system... So long as the Federal Government is barred from bailing out such failed states for their self inflicted damage and don't redistribute wealth from responsible states to the irresponsible ones.

Collectivism doesn't work. Its an immoral system that glorifies the sacrifice of value and places the state, and "society", above the individual. Whether its an individual or an entire nation, its simply not possible to sacrifice your way to prosperity any more than its possible to spend your way out of debt - Yet this is the collectivist doctrine known as altruism.

The preamble to the Constitution is a FEDERAL not state document which shows intent for possible Federal assistance.

“ We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ”

 

[Dr.Who]

The preamble to the Constitution is a FEDERAL not state document which shows intent for possible Federal assistance.

“ We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ”

Redistribution is contrary to justice. Uhholding the constiutional right to own property is. Yes it can be confiscated with due process of law, as in taxes, But it remains a basic right that it must only be violated for the most pressing and important of needs. Health in insurance for all does not qualify as dire enough to warrant using tax dollars even if there were not plenty of other reasons that the state can't and should not provide it.

Domestic tranquility:

From a constitutional dictionary - "Domestic Tranquility
One of the concerns of the Framers was that the government prior to that under the Constitution was unable, by force or persuasion, to quell rebellion or quarrels amongst the states. The government watched in horror as Shay's Rebellion transpired just before the Convention, and some states had very nearly gone to war with each other over territory (such as between Pennsylvania and Connecticut over Wilkes-Barre). One of the main goals of the Convention, then, was to ensure the federal government had powers to squash rebellion and to smooth tensions between states."

General welfare:

"Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [<ME wel faren, to fare well] Source: AHD

Welfare in today's context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution."

http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html