Ignore This Thread

[Andy]

My curoisty now is .. Do we choice Darwinisim on healthcare...
If you have a low intelligence.. and unfortunally can only work a regular job as a bank teller.. but you have a family .. say 2 kids..

Lets say his average monthly income is 1800 a month .. which is not terribly bad considering he has no intelligence.

so .. 1800
750 for rent ((about right.. probably more for owning ))
100 Electric
20 for water
100 for phone
225 car payment
100 for full coverage for that car
200 grocery bill (( growing kids ))

Everyone can agree this is ABOUT right.. plus or minus about 100
I got $1495 dollars of his check now gone..
After doing some checking...with Humana online I found the starting price for BARELY any medical insurance is $230 dollars
Thats not including dental which tacks on an additional 137 dollars.
Already he is over budget ... by 66 dollars

you can argue all day that "well he doesn't need the car payment.. should buy a jalopy.. or he doesn't need a phone." instead of addressing the issue that his healthcare that he might never use is the second largest bill he has to worry about now.

Not to mention .. that the deductible is $7500...

Ok I'm getting very very different numbers than you. A $7,500 deductible plan costs $68/month with United Health.

The only plan that came close to $230 Dollars was a $500 deductible plan with full medication and office coverage.

With that said, if he's earning so little, he needs to go get another job, or a second job. I've seen truck drivers that were just above Forest Gump, that earned $45K a year. You can earn $1800 take home delivering pizzas and cutting grass. Construction work can bring in more than $1800 a month easy.

Finely, cut expenses more. If you really are only bringing in $1800 a month, you can't afford that much. Cut the phone. Land line is $35/mo. Ditch the cell. Rates change regionally, but if your rent is $775 and you earn $1800, you need to move. You can't afford that place. My first place was $380/mo. Yes I know that's small for a family, but look you can't afford it. So either raise your income, or drop the expense. A car payment? When you only earn $1800 a month? That is a joke. Buy a beater.

The problem is, there is an underlining assumption that all these things are must haves. Why? Because we are spoiled Americans and the idea that you can get by with a small place, an old car, and no cell phone is... just incredible! Yet I know of more than a few people who have done just that.

Way way back when I was just out of high school, I worked at a Wendy's. There I met a Somalian. He came to escape the war, and had nothing. No money, no education, not a thing. He wasn't stupid, it was just that his Somalian education meant nothing here. He had a wife that didn't work, and two kids. He rented a tiny one bedroom apartment. Him and his wife slept in the room, while the kids slept in the living room on cushions. AC was an open window. No TV, no video game system. No cell phone. He didn't have a car, and walked to work. His wife walked to the store, and his kids helped carry the stuff back. He bought bicycles for his kids to ride to school.

He worked his way up and moved on, last I heard he owns a Hertz rent-a-car.

Point is this. You all make choices as to what is important. You choose to value a new car over health care? That's your choice. We should not pay for it. You want a cell phone and a big TV and so on? That's your choice, and we should not pay for it. This guy made sure he had health care coverage. No he didn't have a spiffy car, or a nice phone with 10K minutes, or a large condo, but he got the prioritize right.

Fact is, everyone can afford health care if they choose to. They simply don't choose to. Instead they drink and party, and buy cars they can't afford, and get toys they don't need, and smoke their lungs out, buy lottery tickets, and then... complain that health care cost too much.

 

[Federal Farmer]

and what a deep thought, its illegal for a hospitial to not treat you...well screw it lets all drop our health care then and just make them do it....who do you think pays for that ? thats right everone else.

Oh, then the rest of America will be like New Orleans, where you get to sit in the hospital waiting room for DAYS instead of hours, waiting to see a doctor. Of course, if you go to your Socialized medicine, then you'll get to wait at least 6 months to see your doctor (if you don't DIE first), just like in CANADA!

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Oh, then the rest of America will be like New Orleans, where you get to sit in the hospital waiting room for DAYS instead of hours, waiting to see a doctor. Of course, if you go to your Socialized medicine, then you'll get to wait at least 6 months to see your doctor (if you don't DIE first), just like in CANADA!

yea it would suck knowing more people had health care ...you know we could make lines real fast if we just raise the rate double again and let a few million more not able to have care....

Healthcare for teh right, F the rest of you

 

[BigRob]

yea it would suck knowing more people had health care ...you know we could make lines real fast if we just raise the rate double again and let a few million more not able to have care....

Healthcare for teh right, F the rest of you

That is pretty much what the current plan is sad to say.

Government move in, regulate and run it, historically prices will rise, we can just be thankful that we will only pay more in taxes for it than we probably would have if we just got our own plans.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

That is pretty much what the current plan is sad to say.

Government move in, regulate and run it, historically prices will rise, we can just be thankful that we will only pay more in taxes for it than we probably would have if we just got our own plans.

I think it will cost less in the long run, more care from teh start , less high bills for catastrophic events. Whats cheaper some pills to help your heart....or the heart attack that comes from not seeing a dr cuz you had no care, and the feds pick up the bill anyway...

And think about the true cost of health care right now, not just what we all pay, but the trillians our companies dumb into payinf for there workers. THings that in any other nation they would not have to pay for.

and again this is a policy that we are just letting people get, you still pay for it. Its not like its just here its free ( unless you realy make a small amount of money) but most who would get it would pay, in to be part of it...or you just keep what you have.

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

Ok I'm getting very very different numbers than you. A $7,500 deductible plan costs $68/month with United Health.

The only plan that came close to $230 Dollars was a $500 deductible plan with full medication and office coverage.

With that said, if he's earning so little, he needs to go get another job, or a second job. I've seen truck drivers that were just above Forest Gump, that earned $45K a year. You can earn $1800 take home delivering pizzas and cutting grass. Construction work can bring in more than $1800 a month easy.

Finely, cut expenses more. If you really are only bringing in $1800 a month, you can't afford that much. Cut the phone. Land line is $35/mo. Ditch the cell. Rates change regionally, but if your rent is $775 and you earn $1800, you need to move. You can't afford that place. My first place was $380/mo. Yes I know that's small for a family, but look you can't afford it. So either raise your income, or drop the expense. A car payment? When you only earn $1800 a month? That is a joke. Buy a beater.

The problem is, there is an underlining assumption that all these things are must haves. Why? Because we are spoiled Americans and the idea that you can get by with a small place, an old car, and no cell phone is... just incredible! Yet I know of more than a few people who have done just that.

Way way back when I was just out of high school, I worked at a Wendy's. There I met a Somalian. He came to escape the war, and had nothing. No money, no education, not a thing. He wasn't stupid, it was just that his Somalian education meant nothing here. He had a wife that didn't work, and two kids. He rented a tiny one bedroom apartment. Him and his wife slept in the room, while the kids slept in the living room on cushions. AC was an open window. No TV, no video game system. No cell phone. He didn't have a car, and walked to work. His wife walked to the store, and his kids helped carry the stuff back. He bought bicycles for his kids to ride to school.

He worked his way up and moved on, last I heard he owns a Hertz rent-a-car.

Point is this. You all make choices as to what is important. You choose to value a new car over health care? That's your choice. We should not pay for it. You want a cell phone and a big TV and so on? That's your choice, and we should not pay for it. This guy made sure he had health care coverage. No he didn't have a spiffy car, or a nice phone with 10K minutes, or a large condo, but he got the prioritize right.

Fact is, everyone can afford health care if they choose to. They simply don't choose to. Instead they drink and party, and buy cars they can't afford, and get toys they don't need, and smoke their lungs out, buy lottery tickets, and then... complain that health care cost too much.

your telling me you can get a family of four insurance for 68 dollars... if that was the case my friend then then we would not be ina healthcare crisis.

Also 1800 a month equates out to be 12 to 13 dollars an hour after taxes.. most of the jobs out there for non-skilled workers is gonna start topping out at around 15 for restraunt styles..

BTW... just tossing in "the guy needs to get a new job" because he can;t cover his medical bills is not an option for most Americans who are non-skilled and without a college education.

We should NOT have to force our workers into the thought that ethier " you can have medical insurance... ONLY if you have two jobs or are a college educated worker." That is just luducris.. the whole reason there are rich people in America is because they had the lower classes to climb above to begin with..

Simply said,.. healthcare only for middle and upper class is UnAmerican,.. where EVERYONE should at least be able to get some form of affordable (( while not ideal )) healthcare to cover themselves and their children..

not to fall into Federal Farmers take and start pointing fingers about education.. Does anyone have some common sence about what typical non-skilled jobs pay now? Or are we just gonna lie to ourselves and not believe that pay as not increased with inflation.

A 21 year old.. who happened to get pregreant .. working a typical customer service job.. can easily afford the healthcare out there right now. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm living it right now.. so don't give me the B.S. that such and such needs to find a job when security during pregancy out-ways all. Some people don't get that luxury.

Where is your empathy... gezzz...

 

[BigRob]

I think it will cost less in the long run, more care from teh start , less high bills for catastrophic events. Whats cheaper some pills to help your heart....or the heart attack that comes from not seeing a dr cuz you had no care, and the feds pick up the bill anyway...

Let us ask this another way. What is cheaper? Heart pills for 300,000,000 people or the cost of paying for a heart attack of someone who did not have insurance? (not a big number)

And think about the true cost of health care right now, not just what we all pay, but the trillians our companies dumb into payinf for there workers. THings that in any other nation they would not have to pay for.

Nothing comes for free. Right now companies pay for it and pass it on to us in the form of higher prices. If government took it over, we would be taxed for it, most likely at higher rates, because government is never as efficient as private business historically.

 

[BigRob]

your telling me you can get a family of four insurance for 68 dollars... if that was the case my friend then then we would not be ina healthcare crisis.

Also 1800 a month equates out to be 12 to 13 dollars an hour after taxes.. most of the jobs out there for non-skilled workers is gonna start topping out at around 15 for restraunt styles..

BTW... just tossing in "the guy needs to get a new job" because he can;t cover his medical bills is not an option for most Americans who are non-skilled and without a college education.

We should NOT have to force our workers into the thought that ethier " you can have medical insurance... ONLY if you have two jobs or are a college educated worker." That is just luducris.. the whole reason there are rich people in America is because they had the lower classes to climb above to begin with..

Simply said,.. healthcare only for middle and upper class is UnAmerican,.. where EVERYONE should at least be able to get some form of affordable (( while not ideal )) healthcare to cover themselves and their children..

not to fall into Federal Farmers take and start pointing fingers about education.. Does anyone have some common sence about what typical non-skilled jobs pay now? Or are we just gonna lie to ourselves and not believe that pay as not increased with inflation.

A 21 year old.. who happened to get pregreant .. working a typical customer service job.. can easily afford the healthcare out there right now. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm living it right now.. so don't give me the B.S. that such and such needs to find a job when security during pregancy out-ways all. Some people don't get that luxury.

Where is your empathy... gezzz...

People can have empathy without wanting to be penalized for their own personal success.

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

People can have empathy without wanting to be penalized for their own personal success.

Who said anything about penalizing people for their sucess huh ?!?!! did i?!?! NO I DIDN'T! Universal Health-care does and I am PRETTY sure I haven't suggested it as the only option yet...


I'm saying no one here as yet answered my original question.. If you are so adamint about not having social health-care .. WELL GUESS WHAT !!! YOUR A MINORITY! and your gonna get proven that as more swing to Obama come November... So you have any BETTER suggestions then social health-care?

I keep asking it.. giving positions that show an average American is really troubled by current health-care costs... But yet no one has tried to give me one good point about what ELSE should be done. Other then working 5 jobs or just admitting that lower class people DON'T DESERVE health-care.

The fact that no one has shown any other ideas is the reason we WILL have social medicine in America by the end of 2010.. Not because its the best idea.. or that its fair.. Because no one has yet come up with a better idea.

 

[BigRob]

Who said anything about penalizing people for their sucess huh ?!?!! did i?!?! NO I DIDN'T! Universal Health-care does and I am PRETTY sure I haven't suggested it as the only option yet...

Was not really targetted at you...

I'm saying no one here as yet answered my original question.. If you are so adamint about not having social health-care .. WELL GUESS WHAT !!! YOUR A MINORITY! and your gonna get proven that as more swing to Obama come November... So you have any BETTER suggestions then social health-care?

Yes, I have a better suggestion. Here it is:


1) Do away with HMO's. They were created by government madates and have basically ruined the market establishing monopolies basically.

2) Bring back the tax breaks for individuals who purchase their own plans. Right now, businesses get all those tax breaks. This system has basically killed the private market for healthcare, and driven the price through the roof.

3) Stop trying to regulate the price. The price will work itself out, but it has to be allowed to do this. Healthcare companies are in it to make money, stop subsidizing them and let them compete with each other in the individual private market.


I have no problem with everyone having healthcare, I have a problem with government providing everyone with healthcare. If we can reestablish the private market that the government killed with the creation of the HMO then we will see real progress. Until then, all we have is more government meddling in a government created problem.

 

[Federal Farmer]

yea it would suck knowing more people had health care ...you know we could make lines real fast if we just raise the rate double again and let a few million more not able to have care....

Healthcare for teh right, F the rest of you

PFOS, you either completely missed, or totally ignored the point. Nationalized, Socialized, or whatever else you want to call it 'healthcare', DOES NOT WORK. It's NEVER worked, and it never will work.

I specifically mentioned New Orleans because I know a bit about the area. Charity Hospital (pre-Katrina) was jam-packed, 24/7/365 with people with no insurance, and they got all the care they needed, BUT, if you weren't bleeding all over the floor, you had to wait in line for DAYS before you were even seen. Canada's system sucks worse than that because by the time you can even get an appointment to see a doctor, you're either over whatever it was that was bothering you, your so far gone that there's nothing they can do for you, or you're DEAD!

The problem with healthcare has nothing to do with doctors, or hospitals, it has to do with GOVERNMENT. If you really want to see truly affordable healthcare insurance, the first thing that's got to happen is TORT REFORM, the second thing is to get rid of all of those stupid government mandates and let doctors get back to treating patients instead of filling out mountains of paperwork, the third thing is to allow insurance companies to write "ala cart" policies where the insured gets to customize their policy the way THEY want it, and lastly, let people write off the ENTIRE cost of their insurance and healthcare (at least until we can get the FairTax passed, at which point it'll be moot).

 

[Shadow]

Canada's system sucks worse than that because by the time you can even get an appointment to see a doctor, you're either over whatever it was that was bothering you, your so far gone that there's nothing they can do for you, or you're DEAD!

Not true. If the person requires urgent attention, they go to an ER closest to them. If the situation is not all that urgent, they can make the appointment OR go to a walk in clinic. ..(particularly if they don't have a dr. So I don't know where you are getting this BS "info": from , but it is not even close to being factual. I have lived in CA and benefitted from its health care system with emergency open heart surgery. The way the medical crisis was handled , not only saved my life.......but it demonstrated the finest of professional skills, knowledge and competance.

Never did have any problems with "waiting " for an appointment. If what you say ( which is not true), is the only reason for not having proper health care for everyone , then you don't have a reason , period. A persons health is more important than stupid WARS.


***************

Charity Hospital (pre-Katrina) was jam-packed, 24/7/365 with people with no insurance, and they got all the care they needed, BUT, if you weren't bleeding all over the floor, you had to wait in line for DAYS before you were even seen.

well, THAT contradicts itself.

 

[GenSeneca]

A persons health is more important than stupid WARS.

Stupid wars... They eventually end but those pesky Entitlement programs keep growing.

 

[Shadow]

Stupid wars... They eventually end but those pesky Entitlement programs keep growing.

I suppose that you BELIEVE what this ad (propaganda) implies and conveys???

 

[GenSeneca]

I suppose that you BELIEVE what this ad (propaganda) implies and conveys???

It is propaganda, I know because I made it... Thats an actual photo from a Cuban hospital... You know Cuba, the country Micheal Moore (speaking of Propaganda) said had a better healthcare system than the US.