Summary of reasons not to nationalize health care

TV cannot answer, at least not honestly, because it reveals the truth. Underneath the veil of compassion and concern for human life is something much darker, contempt for individual achievement and ability.
Absolutely!!

Hell, if the have-nots were to get the same consideration/health-care as the haves, the have-nots might (actually) become competetive with the haves....and, who needs that kind o' competition??!!! You can ask the Health Insurance Industry about that worst-case-scenerio!!!

If individuals who need healthcare have a "right" to receive it, then those who have the ability to provide it are obligated to do so without compensation, they are forced to sacrifice for the good of society.
YOW!!!! Can you imagine, that??!!!! Ya' start down that road, and...before-you-know-it...those folks who couldn't afford health-insurance will start to (actually) think they're on the same TEAM as the folks who helped-'em-out....as if they're real Americans!!!!! :eek:

The NEXT-thing-you-know...both sides' kids will start mixin'....actually playin' together!!! :eek:
 
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Dr. Who, you left off:

# Federal involvement in Health Care is forbidden by the Constitution. The 10th amendment states that any powers not explicitly given to the Fed by the Constitution, are forbidden for the Fed to exercise, but "the states and the people" can have those powers if they want.

And the power to run a general health care program, is not given to the Fed anywhere in the Const, including its amendments.

You're welcome! :D
 
My claim is simply that the case can be made that there IS constitutional claim to universal health care.

I think that technically, you are correct, which is another reason why the US needs to get out of the UN.

The UN serves not a single interest of the US. It is mostly a conclave of israel and america haters. It's main functional purpose is to impede the US. It is largely composed of representatives of reflexively anti-american euroweenies, the last of the marxist countries, anti-semitic arabs, and third world hellholes. It's assumptions and working ideology is socialism and statism.
 

US Constitution

Amendment IX, Amedment VI cl.2
Ratified by 11 states on December 15, 1791. First US federal law.

This Constitution . . . and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby.
- Amendment VI


Charter of the United Nations
Ratified by the U.S. Senate on July 28, 1945.

The preamble states that the peoples of the United Nations have determined to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom.

Article 55 of the UN Charter states: The UN shall promote higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development . . . as well as universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion.

All levels of U.S. Government are expected to enforce rights guaranteed by the UN Charter. The US supreme court, two circuit courts, two district courts and one tax court have cited the UN Charter as U.S. law.


United Nations Declaration on Human Rights

Article 25 Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.


International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights

In October of 1977 the U.S. signed the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It was ratified it on Oct 21, 1994. This document recognizes:

The right of everyone to the enjoyment of the highest available standard of physical and mental health. [to be implemented by] the creation of conditions which would assure to all, medical service and medical attention in the event of sickness.

I guess the U.S. Constitution, the United Nations Charter, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, etc. don't believe in ANY rights for unborn babies.
 
Very accurate and honest rebuttal of many of the "urban legends" that are being kept alive by the big business health care industry in the US, and their talking machine.
Thank you.

Thank you for your comment but boiling it down to myths of big business fails to recognize that other players add their own myths and that some of the rhetoric is actually true.

But lets look at that for a moment. How do myths perpetuate themselves in a country with a million media sources?
 
I guess the U.S. Constitution, the United Nations Charter, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, etc. don't believe in ANY rights for unborn babies.


That is how many read those. How is that relevant here? Are you making a contrast between the failure to read what is obviously a right of unborn persons and the reading of a government power that is obviously not intended to be a part of the constitution?
 
The bottom line is that NO American citizen should be forced to choose between quality health care, and food and shelter for themselves and/or their families. No senior citizen should be forced to work at Walmart or some other low-grade job, so they can pay for their life-saving medications.

I believe that in a country as rich and bountiful and dynamic as the United States Of America, EVERY citizen should be entitled to quality health care.

The differing opinions are based on how to achieve that goal.
 
The bottom line is that NO American citizen should be forced to choose between quality health care, and food and shelter for themselves and/or their families.

Then it is a good thing that no one is making anyone make that choice. It is also a good thing that not a single person in this country is without health care.

No senior citizen should be forced to work at Walmart or some other low-grade job, so they can pay for their life-saving medications.

Why?
What is wrong with working for the things one wants to buy?
Additionally, I would add that it is a good thing no one is forcing anyone to work at wal-mart.

I believe that in a country as rich and bountiful and dynamic as the United States Of America, EVERY citizen should be entitled to quality health care.
I disagree. And since the constitution disagrees with you too that is that.

The differing opinions are based on how to achieve that goal.
Yes, I think people should work for what they want and that if they fail then you and I can help them with donations. You are free to help anyone you meet who does not have health care. There are none so it won't cost you much. But obamacare will cost you personally a lot in many hidden ways.
 
Dr. Who, you left off:

# Federal involvement in Health Care is forbidden by the Constitution. The 10th amendment states that any powers not explicitly given to the Fed by the Constitution, are forbidden for the Fed to exercise, but "the states and the people" can have those powers if they want.

And the power to run a general health care program, is not given to the Fed anywhere in the Const, including its amendments.

$ $ $ $ $

"Medicare Part D was passed in 2003 under President George Bush as part of the Medicare Modernization Act and took effect on Jan. 1, 2006. Before passage, Medicare, the single-payer system enacted by President Lyndon Johnson in 1965 to provide health care for the elderly, provided no prescription drug coverage.

Approximately 75 percent of drug coverage is financed by the federal government and 25 percent by beneficiaries through monthly premiums, co-payments, co-insurance and deductibles. As opposed to traditional Medicare, in which the government directly pays providers for services, Part D coverage is privatized--meaning government tax-payer funds and contributions from beneficiaries are passed on to private insurers to manage benefits.

Medicare Part D has attracted substantial controversy from major health advocacy organizations, including the Commonwealth Fund, the Center for Medicare Rights and Families USA, as well as the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the government organization responsible for administering government health benefits. Criticism centers on effects of the plan's privatization. Instead of the government negotiating prices with drug companies, price controls are left up to the market, which critics argue makes the prices and the program overall too expensive."


"Bottom line: this report shows that, unfortunately for consumers and taxpayers, the MMA has not even come close to meeting the high expectations set for it by Congress. Consumers are getting hurt and taxpayers fleeced, while insurance companies and drug manufacturers are raking in money faster than they can count it."


Implemented when "the adults" took-over; 2000 - 2008
 
Then it is a good thing that no one is making anyone make that choice. It is also a good thing that not a single person in this country is without health care.


You're wrong. Many people are without health care, although (thanks to the
EMTALA act) emergency care is, by law, provided in MOST hospitals. However, that act has exensive limitations such as:

Some hospitals (those not receiving any medicare/medicaid funds) are exempt.
The emergency care that is, by law, require is limited to "stabilization," not on going care, even in the case of a heart attack or cancer.
The law itself doesn't provide for proper oversight, and only imposes fines on hospitals that consistently still demonstrates that they practice "patients dumping." So the trend of patients dumping continues.

In addition, that act only takes into account "emergency" care, so most "emergencies" which would have easily been prevented by a routine doctor visit are more comments and cost more to the whole system.

Why?
What is wrong with working for the things one wants to buy?
Additionally, I would add that it is a good thing no one is forcing anyone to work at wal-mart.

You didn't quite understand: It is not about "working for the things you WANT to buy," it is working at menial jobs, while you may already be sick, to purchse things that you NEED to maintain your (already) poor health, so you can keep working. . .etc. . .
There is nothing wrong with working to be able to buy that new TV or those extra candy bars. Healthcare is not a "want." It is a "need."

I disagree. And since the constitution disagrees with you too that is that.

The Constitution was written at a time when "healthcare" was limited to the principle that a superficial wound on one's hand which, for lack of care and hygiene had turned gangrenous, would lead to cutting the whole arm off!
A women in labor whose baby was too large to come out naturally would die in child labor. A slightly premature newborn had pratically no chance for survival. And some old, sick people were left to die with minimal food and no care.

Our forefathers, for all their praised wisdoms, had NO WAY of foreseeing the progress in the medical profession. What was and wasn't included in the Constitution should not be the only way to determine one's rights.

I am pretty certain that, as most our forefathers were Christians, they would have a very difficult time TODAY denying that healthcare is not a right, although "pursuit of happiness" is! How can one "pursue happiness" when one has a child terminally ill?

Once again, the Constitution is much like the Bible. Those who take it literally have a very narrow, and very limited view of what the whole message met. Neither documents is worth much (except as historical documents) if they are not LIVING documents.

I care enough about both to want them to be more than outdated pieces of papers written by limited in time, culture, and vision people.


Yes, I think people should work for what they want and that if they fail then you and I can help them with donations. You are free to help anyone you meet who does not have health care. There are none so it won't cost you much. But obamacare will cost you personally a lot in many hidden ways.


You're wrong again. The fact is that the current system of "go to the emergency room" cost a LOT MORE to society, both in terms of human cost and economics than any universal system would.

It's simple, look at the statistics of costs among all world health care. Ours is by far the most expensive, and doesn't even make it to the top three in terms of quality!
 
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Tommy Douglas

"As leader of the Saskatchewan Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF) from 1942 and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan from 1944 to 1961, he led the first social-democratic government in North America and introduced single-payer health care to Canada.

Douglas is widely hailed as the father of Medicare, and took the opportunity to take his cause to the federal stage. Thus, in 1961, he retired from his position as Saskatchewan's premier and turned over this job Woodrow Lloyd, taking leadership of the federal New Democratic Party.

The Saskatchewan program was finally launched by his successor, Woodrow Lloyd, in 1962. The success of the province's public health care program was not lost on the federal government. Another Saskatchewan politician, newly elected Prime Minister John Diefenbaker, decreed in 1958 that any province seeking to introduce a hospital plan would receive 50 cents on the dollar from the federal government. In 1962, Diefenbaker appointed Justice Emmett Hall—also of Saskatchewan, a noted jurist and Supreme Court Justice—to Chair a Royal Commission on the national health system—the Royal Commission on Health Services. In 1964, Justice Hall recommended the nationwide adoption of Saskatchewan's model of public health insurance."


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Then it is a good thing that no one is making anyone make that choice. It is also a good thing that not a single person in this country is without health care.

This very common argument made by the "healthcare for profit" people is flawed.

The BEST analogy that can be made about the American health care system is the following:
Automobiles are available for everybody. Some can afford to drive Cadillac Escalades. Some can only afford to drive Kias. And others drive rusty 1990 Chevy Cavaliers.

Why?
What is wrong with working for the things one wants to buy?
Additionally, I would add that it is a good thing no one is forcing anyone to work at wal-mart.

Maybe senior citizens being forced to work at Wal Mart, as a matter of life and death, is acceptable to you, but it's not to me.

I disagree. And since the constitution disagrees with you too that is that.

The U.S. Constitution doesn't address a lot of things, but it sure comes in handy as a "fall-back" position for the leftists and the non-leftists.

Yes, I think people should work for what they want and that if they fail then you and I can help them with donations. You are free to help anyone you meet who does not have health care. There are none so it won't cost you much. But obamacare will cost you personally a lot in many hidden ways.

You are equating BASIC healthcare with "normal" healthcare. Do you not believe that there are MILLIONS of people in this country who do not receive healthcare because they don't have the means to PAY for it? Do you not believe that there are millions of people in this country who are unnecessarily enduring crippling illnesses and diseases because they don't have the money to see a doctor and/or pay for medications?

Look, I don't agree with most of what the leftists believe in, and I abhor the hypocrisy and the lies and the childish behaviors of the leftists, but there is a thing called "compassion" and there is a thing called "helping your fellow man". Decent health care is one of the most basic of human needs, after food and water. NOBODY in this country should be without QUALITY health care.
 
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