Trade deficits are always detrimental to their nations’ GDPs.

[Supposn]

..............You should be careful when using the word ALWAYS...Hyperinflation causes a nations GDP to skyrocket and drastically lowers the value of the nations currency. As a result, the nations exports dramatically increase and their imports dramatically decrease, leading to a trade surplus. This is what happened in Germany and more recently in Zimbabwe, proving your claim of ALWAYS to be hyperinflated rhetoric. .........

GenSeneca, It took me a while to find the sentences you chose to excerpt. Taken out of the context from the entire paragraph I couldn’t recall what I had meant when I wrote them.

I then was preparing to defend my use of “always” but after reconsidering your specifying “hyperinflation” rather than ordinary inflation, I realize you criticism is correct.

Fortunately hyper inflation does not often occur among the world’s leading nations but I did fail to consider it when I used the word “always”. I’m not certain but (unlike Confederate currency) I don’t think the U.S. has ever experienced hyperinflation.

Respectfully, Supposn

//////////////////////////////
Originally Posted by Supposn:

To any extent that production is not reflected within the prices of imports or exports, nation’s trade deficits and surpluses affects upon the GDP cannot be fully identified and thus cannot be fully attributed to the nation’s global trade. That’s mathematically logical. That’s why the extent beyond amounts of the nation’s trade imbalances themselves can only be estimated and is thus a matter of opinion. What is certain is the additional unidentified amounts affects upon GDP for trade deficits are ALWAYS additionally detrimental and for trade surpluses ALWAYS additionally contribute to the nations’ GDPs.
////////////////////////

 

[Supposn]

Government regulation.

............... Minimal, as in minimal, not corrupt or non existent as was/is the case with Haiti. Governments only legitimate function is the protection of Individual Rights, so any laws that effect the economy should be limited to the specific job of protecting the public from force and fraud.


Fed Policy, Fed Policy, and a failure of government to perform its legitimate task of protecting the public from force and fraud. Perhaps if the government were focused on protecting the public from force and fraud, rather than dabbling in a million other non related activities, occurrences such as the gulf spill could have been avoided.

GenSeneca, the Gulf oil spill was due to the oil industry’s self regulation.

The oil industry’s incompetence, indifference and greed were not acts of fraud. Our government did not strive to protect our environment or the general public or the workmen on the oil rigs. Our government practiced minimal intervention into oil companies’ activities because they’re professionals that can regulate themselves at minimal expense to our government.

Off shore drilling was apparently among the “other non related activities” that the federal and state governments did not sufficiently “dabble” in. There’s a long list of items that our government refrains from “dabbling in” but discontinuing most of what and where we do dabble would be detrimental to our nation’s best interests.

Dabbling is expensive and invasive. I recall when a drug that the big invasive federal government banned from being prescribed within the USA was responsible for worldwide birth defects. Each and every existing or proposed regulation should be judged upon its own merits. Those who would make such determinations based only upon political labels are very wrong.

Respectfully, Suppposn

 

[Supposn]

Warren Buffett's trade concept

....................There is only one way to actually control trade deficits, by manipulating the economic behavior of every individual participating in the marketplace. So that is what you must be a proponent of, using governments monopoly on the legal use of force to manipulate the population into making the economic decisions you think are right.

A Free Market gives individuals the freedom to make their own choices without force or fraud manipulating the market. Mixed Markets restrict that freedom, Command Markets eliminate that freedom, but both do so by using the force of government to influence, or dictate, individual economic behavior in a vein attempt to "steer" the national economy.

GenSeneca, I'm a proponent of a specific trade proposal. If you find specific faults with that proposal, I’d be pleased to discuss them with you at that topic’s site.
Refer to the topic “Reduce the trade deficit; increase GDP & median wage”.

I prefer to discuss specific existing or proposed regulations rather than political labels and bumper sticker phrases.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Government regulation.

GenSeneca, the Gulf oil spill was due to the oil industry’s self regulation.

I said it was a failure of government to perform it's legitimate task of protecting individual rights, and since the public is comprised of individuals, government failed to protect the public.

The oil industry’s incompetence, indifference and greed were not acts of fraud.

So if I tell you my bridge is perfectly safe to walk across and you fall through, you have not been the victim of fraud?

How about if I tell you my offshore oil rig won't explode and cause an environmental disaster on your shoreline only to have it explode and cause an environmental disaster on your shoreline, would you still not consider yourself to have been a victim of fraud?

Our government did not strive to protect our environment or the general public or the workmen on the oil rigs.

Which is precisely why I said it was a failure of government. You seem to agree with me in the most disagreeable way.

Our government practiced minimal intervention into oil companies’ activities because they’re professionals that can regulate themselves at minimal expense to our government.

I consider it governments job to protect the individual from force and fraud, government failed to do it's job. You also seem to believe that government failed to do it's job...

So where is the disagreement here?

Are you upset because I use specific terms like Individual and try to avoid nebulous terms like public, because I specify precisely what it is that government should protect us from rather than leaving the terms of protection as vague as possible?

When people use statements like, "Government should protect the public for the sake of national interest and in the common good of society!", it may sound wonderful but if you take the time to really examine the content of the statement, it's an example of using Glittering Generalities. The terms are defined ad libitum, allowing the speaker to take just about any action he wishes and still be able to claim it's a fulfillment of his statement.

Glittering Generalities: Propagandists employ vague, sweeping statements (often slogans or simple catchphrases) using language associated with values and beliefs deeply held by the audience without providing supporting information or reason.

They appeal to such notions as honor, glory, love of country, desire for peace, freedom, and family values. The words and phrases are vague and suggest different things to different people but the implication is always favorable. It cannot be proved true or false because it really says little or nothing at all.

The Institute of Propaganda Analysis suggests a number of questions we should ask ourselves if we are confronted with this technique: What do the slogans or phrases really mean? Is there a legitimate connection between the idea being discussed and the true meaning of the slogan or phrase being used? What are the merits of the idea itself if it is separated from the slogans or phrases? -- Propaganda Techniques​

Those who would make such determinations based only upon political labels are very wrong.

To what are you referring?

 

[GenSeneca]

BP's Dismal Safety Record

May 27, 2010

As the nation comes to grips with the worst oil disaster in its history, there is evidence BP has one of the worst safety track records of any major oil company operating in the United States.

In two separate disasters prior to the Gulf oil rig explosion, 30 BP workers have been killed, and more than 200 seriously injured.

In the last five years, investigators found, BP has admitted to breaking U.S. environmental and safety laws and committing outright fraud. BP paid $373 million in fines to avoid prosecution.

...

Coast Guard cites Transocean lapses in Gulf spill

Sun Apr 24, 2011

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Serious safety lapses by oil rig owner and operator Transocean Ltd contributed to the massive blowout and spill at a BP Plc well in the Gulf of Mexico, the Coast Guard said in a report on the 2010 disaster.

A Coast Guard investigation "revealed numerous systems deficiencies, and acts and omissions by Transocean and its Deepwater Horizon crew, that had an adverse impact on the ability to prevent or limit the magnitude of the disaster," the agency said in a statement on last April's blowout at the BP well.

The 288-page report on http://marineinvestigations.us/ found Transocean had piled up "numerous deficiencies in the area of safety" in the years leading up to the April 20 explosion and spill that killed 11 people and fouled a wide section of the Gulf.

A team of investigators from the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, Regulation and Enforcement and the Coast Guard found poor maintenance of electrical equipment, bypassing of automatic shutdown systems, and lack of training of personnel for emergencies, the report said.

"These deficiencies indicate that Transocean's failure to have an effective safety management system and instill a culture that emphasizes and ensures safety contributed to this disaster," the Coast Guard statement said.

Transocean had numerous international safety code violations, repeated maintenance deficiencies including neglected safety inspections, and a record of safety incidents that were not properly investigated, the report said.

The rig operator also failed to ensure that its onboard managers and crew had sufficient safety training and knowledge and were unaware of procedures for shutting down the rig in a way that could have averted an explosion, it said.

The initial report will be included as part of the final Coast Guard investigative report, which is expected to be released by July 27, the statement said.

A barrage of court claims pitting BP against its partners in the Gulf of Mexico oil spill could lay the groundwork for billions of dollars in settlements to spread the costs of the disaster.​

Supposn, do you still believe that a company who repeatedly and knowingly lied about their offshore operations did not commit fraud?

 

[Supposn]

Gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

............. First off, government spending should NOT be included in the calculation of GDP. Government does not PRODUCE anything, government only CONSUMES wealth that it either taxes out of the economy (lowering GDP), borrows against future taxpayers (lowering future GDP's), or prints out of thin air (Devaluing the currency). ..........

GenSeneca, gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

For the purpose of calculating GDP there’s no attempt to question the wisdom or morality behind each of the goods and services consumed or used within the nation. Opinions regarding individual or all expenditures for goods or services purchased by any levels of governments’ within the nation are inconsequential to the calculation of GDP.

[I suppose such an objective statistic to be only an estimate. But if each time it’s calculated the calculation method is kept reasonably consistent, the calculation has value for comparative purposes. It’s more useful to consider GDP per capita and for differing points in time the calculation should be adjusted to the then current purchasing power of the currency used to express the GDP].

If the GDP were subjective, comparisons between each calculator’s amounts would be of little or no use for comparative purposes. Your objection to the GDP is shared by many others but the world’s communities of economists and statisticians have not generally accepted and replaced GDP with a superior statistical calculation.

You're not arguing with fact or opinion; you're oppossing the conventionally accepted definition of “GDP”.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Government regulation.

GenSeneca, the Gulf oil spill was due to the oil industry’s self regulation.

The oil industry got blamed because they were responsible for carrying out regulations that were bone headed. If there had been a government regulatory agent on board who told them to do what they did he would have rightly been blamed.

There was no such agent on board but the blame still goes to the bone headed regulation that forced them to make unwise choices.

When the rig operators pumped up clay from the ocean floor they were prohibited from dumping it back into the ocean because it was defined as environmental waste. So they put it back into the well hoping to eject it from the pipe while it was still in the ocean (clay brought up on the ship is environmental waste but clay still in the ocean is not). This is standard practice. However, this time it caused the pipe to explode.

The clay should have been dumped overboard.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

You're not arguing with fact or opinion; you're oppossing the conventionally accepted definition of “GDP”.

I used actual facts to articulate my opinion as to why government spending should not be used in calculating GDP. Stating that the formula is widely accepted means nothing to me... Remember, it was also widely accepted that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Since you're just repeating the same nonsense and addressing nothing of substance, I'll make it real easy for you, simply answer either "Yes" or "No" to each of the following:

A Continent's trade deficit is bad for the Continent - Yes or No

A Nation's trade deficit is bad for the Nation - Yes or No

A State's trade deficit is bad for the State - Yes or No

A County's trade deficit is bad for the County - Yes or No

A City's trade deficit is bad for the City - Yes or No

A Family's trade deficit is bad for the Family - Yes or No

An Individual's trade deficit is bad for the Individual - Yes or No

 

[Supposn]

Re: Gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

I used actual facts to articulate my opinion as to why government spending should not be used in calculating GDP. Stating that the formula is widely accepted means nothing to me... Remember, it was also widely accepted that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Since you're just repeating the same nonsense and addressing nothing of substance, I'll make it real easy for you, simply answer either "Yes" or "No" to each of the following:

A Continent's trade deficit is bad for the Continent - Yes or No

A Nation's trade deficit is bad for the Nation - Yes or No

A State's trade deficit is bad for the State - Yes or No

A County's trade deficit is bad for the County - Yes or No

A City's trade deficit is bad for the City - Yes or No

A Family's trade deficit is bad for the Family - Yes or No

An Individual's trade deficit is bad for the Individual - Yes or No

GenSeneca, unless there’s only one nation on the continent, or a the continent’s population may choose to modify where to live and where to work, whenever they wish to do so, a continent’s trade deficit’s inconsequential. Capital is portable and labor’s less so.

Similarly a trade deficit of a city or state is inconsequential because they do not have control over who and what passes through their borders.

I don’t know what’s meant by an individual’s or family’s trade deficit. If you equate positive cash flows as surpluses and negative cash flows as deficits, then a surplus is preferable.

As you point out, during periods of hyperinflation or hyper depression values of goods are changing so quickly that the balance of trade can only be determined if the value of goods are expressed in other than the “erratic” currency. Otherwise a trade deficit’s ALWAYS detrimental to the nation’s GDP.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Supposn]

Re: Gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

I used actual facts to articulate my opinion as to why government spending should not be used in calculating GDP. Stating that the formula is widely accepted means nothing to me... Remember, it was also widely accepted that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

GenSeneca, the GDP is a statistical description of a situation or condition.

It’s useful for comparative purposes.

If GDP is used to compare conditions between longer durations of time, the statistic is less useful unless it’s adjusted to reflect the then current purchasing powers of the GDPs' expressed currencies.

If the GDP is compared to median wage, the comparison’s almost useless unless it’s GDP per capita.

If the GDP is not calculated in an acceptably standard method, or in a less objective manner, it less useful to those who are unaware or do not accept the nonstandard or nonobjective methods. It’s less useful for comparative purposes.

I do not perceive how you used actual facts to articulate your opinions.
Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Supposn]

The gulf oil spill.

The oil industry got blamed because they were responsible for carrying out regulations that were bone headed. If there had been a government regulatory agent on board who told them to do what they did he would have rightly been blamed.

There was no such agent on board but the blame still goes to the bone headed regulation that forced them to make unwise choices.

When the rig operators pumped up clay from the ocean floor they were prohibited from dumping it back into the ocean because it was defined as environmental waste. So they put it back into the well hoping to eject it from the pipe while it was still in the ocean (clay brought up on the ship is environmental waste but clay still in the ocean is not). This is standard practice. However, this time it caused the pipe to explode.

The clay should have been dumped overboard.

GenSeneca, the Gulf oil spill description I heard is the complete opposite of what you described.

The pipe did not burst but there was a gusher of tremendous pressure. That pressure was not contained because the operators had filled the pipe with lighter weight salt water rather than the heavier mud.

Furthermore the devices that were supposed to sense the excessive pressure and seal the pipe failed. We are now told that those devices are likely to be damaged by such traumas and thus are generally expected to fail.

The government has been granting permits for many off shore rigs to commence or continue their operations. The oil companies have not replaced their similar shut-off devices with any improved devices. There may not yet be such improved devices.

There are similar deep water drilling and extraction operations in many seas off the shores of other nations. BP participates in some of them.

Excluding this particular Gulf spill, there’s much greater numbers and extents of accidents, spills, crippling or loss of lives per deep water rigs within USA’s jurisdiction than that of similar deep water drilling and extraction rigs beyond USA’s jurisdictions. No one has satisfactorily been able to explain such significant differences.

If we’re going to continue discussing the pro’s and cons of government regulations and oversight, let’s do it within another discussion thread.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

Similarly a trade deficit of a city or state is inconsequential because they do not have control over who and what passes through their borders.

GDP can be calculated on the city, county, and state levels but you're claiming their trade deficits are "inconsequential" on the basis of them not being able to set trade policy?

Well if that's the case, then simply eliminate the federal government's ability to set trade policy and our national trade deficit will magically become "inconsequential".

 

[Supposn]

Re: Gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

GDP can be calculated on the city, county, and state levels but you're claiming their trade deficits are "inconsequential" on the basis of them not being able to set trade policy?

Well if that's the case, then simply eliminate the federal government's ability to set trade policy and our national trade deficit will magically become "inconsequential".

GenSeneca, No! Our federal trade deficit would not disappear.
But we to a great extent will have denied our power to affect our own nation's affairs.

Our nation cannot agree upon how to best improve our trade policy and increase our GDP; thus we lack the will to act.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Centrehalf]

And now for something completely different...

...Admiral Byrd and the 30 foot giant electric penguin?

 

[Supposn]

Re: Gross domestic production's an objective rather than a subjective statistic.

GDP can be calculated on the city, county, and state levels but you're claiming their trade deficits are "inconsequential" on the basis of them not being able to set trade policy?

Well if that's the case, then simply eliminate the federal government's ability to set trade policy and our national trade deficit will magically become "inconsequential".

Gen Seneca, trade deficits between states within the USA are not economically inconsequential; but the U.S. constitution in effect hinders each U.S. state from hindering commerce between states, territories or foreign nations. Thus the advantages or disadvantages regarding the manner of trade between states are inconsequential due to constitutional limits of states’ powers.
Excerpted from U.S. Constitution’s article 1, section 9:
“No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.
No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another; nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another”.

This discussion is now 2 pages. I did not read all but I reviewed some of the messages. You’ve requested examples of trade deficits as applied to individuals.
Individuals voluntarily enter agreements because they perceive due to the agreement there’d be benefits to themselves. There are within our laws, examples of specific individuals’ acts or contracts between mutually agreeing parties as being contrary to the public’s interest. Our laws have deemed mutual agreements enabling or evoking those undesirable practices to be illegal.

Due to enterprises outsourcing goods or service products, they may perceive a gain from being enabled to reduce their labor force. If the new source is within our nation, the nation’s GDP has not been reduced. USA has had a trade deficit of goods every year of the past half century. That was for the USA in aggregate less jobs and lesser total payroll amounts (than otherwise).

Although individuals enterprises realize gains due to reduced payrolls, their nations’ realize net economic losses due to trade deficits. Rather than treating the USA’s underemployed as excess stock to be shelved, we should better employ them.
Refer to the topic
of “Reduce the trade deficit; increase GDP & median wage”.

Respectfully, Supposn