US administration to abolish due process

[pocketfullofshells]

We hear this argument almost daily by opponents of GITMO, but really it does not stand up to scrutiny. If it is such a great recruiting tool... why doesn't the top Al Quada leadership use it?

From the WSJ:


To follow the idea that we ought to close GITMO because it is a great recruiting tool, we ought to also end our support for Israel and abandon Iraq and Afghanistan... surely you can agree that a tank division is someone's backyard is a better recruiting tool than some prison thousands of miles away?

The overall point is simply that regardless of the existence of GITMO, Al Qaeda has been able to recruit, and will continue to do so.



We are not trying to win the hearts and minds of Al Qaeda, (or really even the Taliban for that matter) we are trying to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people.



While there are some examples of Taliban fighters ending up in GITMO, the vast majority were treated as POW's and have been sent home. You make it sound like everyone we capture will be sent to GITMO, which is simply not the case.

First , a review of 32 statements of top leaders? you now full well that recruiting comes from within the family, and by friends and family at the local level...and Bin Ladin does not have to say anything about Gitmo...the Arab Press, and Mosques can do a fine job of that for him.

I would never claim we are out to change the harts and minds of Al Quida, or the Taliban ( though we are to a extent with the Taliban)
But we are trying to get to the poor, the moderates and the people who could while not with them now...could very easily join them later. The perception of the US torturing Muslims, or humiliating them like we was shown in Iraq ( and as much as we like to pretend, we know its far less "isolated" then it is. These ideas and Images , added to a already paranoid, and warped idea of the west and US...make recruiting just that much easier.
Even in the Taliban...we know that there is a moderate or even sizeable part of the taliban that is not there for some deep Religious ideal, or hate of America...they are there for money status power...that Taliban is just a tool for them...and some of them we can get to...The True Belivers of the Taliban , we will never get...but that does not mean we can't weaken them.

what was the biggest turning point in the Iraq war? in my view..the Awaking...when Sunni Iraqi's turned on the insurgents and terrorists....why? because they decided that we where better then them...Iraq did not turn because we sent more troops...though I do believe that was very needed and played a role as well...It turned because we changed some minds about who to back...And evry image or report of us Torturing or disgracing Iraqi Muslims...made that just that much harder....

And the thing about who is at Gitmo....well since no one gets a real trial or anything...we really don't know who is there do we? should they be a POW or are they a terrorist...who knows...all we have done with many is just lock the door throw out the key and say...sorry we don't want to talk about why we are holding you...And while we may be able to look at the US government and say, im sure they have good reason to hold them...most of the world, and not even a lot of Americans...are willing to just buy that.

this is a war we will never win with guns and bombs...will they be needed...yes...but anything even close to a win ( not even sure what that would be ) will be won or lost based on how our nation is perceived overseas.

 

[BigRob]

First , a review of 32 statements of top leaders? you now full well that recruiting comes from within the family, and by friends and family at the local level...and Bin Ladin does not have to say anything about Gitmo...the Arab Press, and Mosques can do a fine job of that for him.

Well those statements were only since January 2009, and as mentioned after that, the similar result came from a much larger pool from 2003-2009 apparently.

As for the Arab Press and Mosques doing the recruiting, I don't think it would be unfair to assume that they would take their cues from the statements that the organizations leadership makes... which do not appear to all that focused on GITMO.

I would never claim we are out to change the harts and minds of Al Quida, or the Taliban ( though we are to a extent with the Taliban)

It is more with the Taliban, but still to a smaller extent.

But we are trying to get to the poor, the moderates and the people who could while not with them now...could very easily join them later. The perception of the US torturing Muslims, or humiliating them like we was shown in Iraq

I don't dispute those images upset people, and might even turn a few people, but often times those people were probably just looking for an excuse already.

I also have to ask... where are the photos out of GITMO that show the United States doing anything like what took place at Abu Ghraib?

( and as much as we like to pretend, we know its far less "isolated" then it is.

Based on what evidence?

These ideas and Images , added to a already paranoid, and warped idea of the west and US...make recruiting just that much easier.

So if GITMO goes away, why exactly will this issue go away?

Even in the Taliban...we know that there is a moderate or even sizeable part of the taliban that is not there for some deep Religious ideal, or hate of America...they are there for money status power...that Taliban is just a tool for them...and some of them we can get to...The True Belivers of the Taliban , we will never get...but that does not mean we can't weaken them.

what was the biggest turning point in the Iraq war? in my view..the Awaking...when Sunni Iraqi's turned on the insurgents and terrorists....why? because they decided that we where better then them...Iraq did not turn because we sent more troops...though I do believe that was very needed and played a role as well...It turned because we changed some minds about who to back...And evry image or report of us Torturing or disgracing Iraqi Muslims...made that just that much harder....

And the thing about who is at Gitmo....well since no one gets a real trial or anything...we really don't know who is there do we? should they be a POW or are they a terrorist...who knows...all we have done with many is just lock the door throw out the key and say...sorry we don't want to talk about why we are holding you...And while we may be able to look at the US government and say, im sure they have good reason to hold them...most of the world, and not even a lot of Americans...are willing to just buy that.

this is a war we will never win with guns and bombs...will they be needed...yes...but anything even close to a win ( not even sure what that would be ) will be won or lost based on how our nation is perceived overseas.

I am a little confused here... the argument pushed by Obama is that GITMO is the top recruiting tool used by Al Qaeda.. why is is that we are discussing "moderates" in the Taliban and how to combat the Taliban?

The Taliban and Al Qaeda are not the same thing.

 

[Rick]

Gosh darnit, we want those middle east islamofascists, barbaric leftovers from the sixth century AD, to LIKE us.

BLAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Gosh darnit, we want those middle east islamofascists, barbaric leftovers from the sixth century AD, to LIKE us.

BLAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

please...the adults are talking here....

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Well those statements were only since January 2009, and as mentioned after that, the similar result came from a much larger pool from 2003-2009 apparently.

As for the Arab Press and Mosques doing the recruiting, I don't think it would be unfair to assume that they would take their cues from the statements that the organizations leadership makes... which do not appear to all that focused on GITMO.



It is more with the Taliban, but still to a smaller extent.



I don't dispute those images upset people, and might even turn a few people, but often times those people were probably just looking for an excuse already.

I also have to ask... where are the photos out of GITMO that show the United States doing anything like what took place at Abu Ghraib?



Based on what evidence?



So if GITMO goes away, why exactly will this issue go away?




I am a little confused here... the argument pushed by Obama is that GITMO is the top recruiting tool used by Al Qaeda.. why is is that we are discussing "moderates" in the Taliban and how to combat the Taliban?

The Taliban and Al Qaeda are not the same thing.

Because while Obama may say Al Qaeda , the war on terror is not realy just about them...but its hard for Obama in a speach to say
The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Shabaab,Taliban, Ansar al-Islam, Egyptian Islamic Jihad....you get the idea....

And as for pics of GITMO that look like Abu Ghraib...all they have to do is show the ones from Abu Ghraib, talk about the fact we are holding these Muslims in this camp with no trail or POW status, and you don't think the mind can make up its own truth about whats going on there? regardless of if its true? Heck we can't even say its not true, as we don't realy know whats going on there. Some of what came out basically has said yes we have tortured prisoners..

Gitmo may not the the big draw to inspire that Say Palestine is, but its one nice extra bit to help there cause. And unlike some of there other claims...they have plenty of news even from here to back up what they say...legitimizing what they are saying.

 

[BigRob]

Because while Obama may say Al Qaeda , the war on terror is not realy just about them...but its hard for Obama in a speach to say
The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Shabaab,Taliban, Ansar al-Islam, Egyptian Islamic Jihad....you get the idea....

The relationship between the Taliban and other "jihadist" groups is far more nuanced than you seem to be letting on. The Taliban is many cases are no fans of many of these groups..in fact, the US State Department does not even classify the Taliban as a "terrorist group."

Therefore, my question stands... why are we talking about the Taliban in relation to the overall question of do extremist "jihadist" groups use GITMO as a major recruiting tool... or as President Obama stated, their "number one" recruiting tool, especially if our own government doesn't even view them as a terrorist organization.

And as for pics of GITMO that look like Abu Ghraib...all they have to do is show the ones from Abu Ghraib, talk about the fact we are holding these Muslims in this camp with no trail or POW status, and you don't think the mind can make up its own truth about whats going on there? regardless of if its true? Heck we can't even say its not true, as we don't realy know whats going on there. Some of what came out basically has said yes we have tortured prisoners..

So which is it.. are the Abu Ghraib abuses the recruiting tool, or is GITMO the recruiting tool?

As for "the mind making up the truth about what is going on there", you seem to be implying we are torturing people nonstop down there...that is simply wrong. President Obama put an end to "enhanced" interrogation methods, and the Red Cross is present at GITMO and does not have a problem with how people are held and treated.

Gitmo may not the the big draw to inspire that Say Palestine is, but its one nice extra bit to help there cause. And unlike some of there other claims...they have plenty of news even from here to back up what they say...legitimizing what they are saying.

President Obama said: (On 12/22/10)

And Guantanamo is probably the number one recruitment tool that is used by these jihadist organizations.

He routinely argues this in an effort to get the facility closed, but the evidence just does not seem to add up that GITMO is the top (or even a major) recruiting tool.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

The relationship between the Taliban and other "jihadist" groups is far more nuanced than you seem to be letting on. The Taliban is many cases are no fans of many of these groups..in fact, the US State Department does not even classify the Taliban as a "terrorist group."

Therefore, my question stands... why are we talking about the Taliban in relation to the overall question of do extremist "jihadist" groups use GITMO as a major recruiting tool... or as President Obama stated, their "number one" recruiting tool, especially if our own government doesn't even view them as a terrorist organization.



So which is it.. are the Abu Ghraib abuses the recruiting tool, or is GITMO the recruiting tool?

As for "the mind making up the truth about what is going on there", you seem to be implying we are torturing people nonstop down there...that is simply wrong. President Obama put an end to "enhanced" interrogation methods, and the Red Cross is present at GITMO and does not have a problem with how people are held and treated.



President Obama said: (On 12/22/10)


He routinely argues this in an effort to get the facility closed, but the evidence just does not seem to add up that GITMO is the top (or even a major) recruiting tool.

First, that was to say...Probably "not" the number one recruiting tool...sorry that's what I said in my head lol.

No the Taliban is different...but they are also a fundamentalist Islamic group who is our Enemy in Afghanistan...and they use the same ideas to recruit...The Taliban also, since the war started...has shifted to ideas closer and closer to these groups...going from a Religious party trying to hold power in Afghanistan...to international terrorism.

The only difference to me from the Taliban from the rest...is that realistically, they will have to be part of any Afghan peace processes, and future government...or we will have a very very long war....or they will just be back in charge in less then 5-10 years after we are gone.

 

[Rick]

Here's an idea - what if sent the IFs flowers and candy on valentine's day?

BLAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

 

[BigRob]

First, that was to say...Probably "not" the number one recruiting tool...sorry that's what I said in my head lol.

I am not sure what you are talking about here... my quote was from the President, in which he said it was the "number one" recruiting tool.

Since there does not really seem to be much actual evidence of that, it leads me to believe that he is making the point for nothing more than a political purpose.

No the Taliban is different...but they are also a fundamentalist Islamic group who is our Enemy in Afghanistan...and they use the same ideas to recruit...The Taliban also, since the war started...has shifted to ideas closer and closer to these groups...going from a Religious party trying to hold power in Afghanistan...to international terrorism.

The only difference to me from the Taliban from the rest...is that realistically, they will have to be part of any Afghan peace processes, and future government...or we will have a very very long war....or they will just be back in charge in less then 5-10 years after we are gone.

I am not sure how this relates the to discussion over if GITMO is a recruiting tool for terrorist groups... since our own government does not even classify the Taliban as such a group, I don't think they play a major role in this discussion...

Also, I will repeat my earlier question:
So which is it.. are the Abu Ghraib abuses the recruiting tool, or is GITMO the recruiting tool?

And, how does closing GITMO takes this so called "recruiting tool" away from these groups?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I am not sure what you are talking about here... my quote was from the President, in which he said it was the "number one" recruiting tool.

Since there does not really seem to be much actual evidence of that, it leads me to believe that he is making the point for nothing more than a political purpose.



I am not sure how this relates the to discussion over if GITMO is a recruiting tool for terrorist groups... since our own government does not even classify the Taliban as such a group, I don't think they play a major role in this discussion...

Also, I will repeat my earlier question:
So which is it.. are the Abu Ghraib abuses the recruiting tool, or is GITMO the recruiting tool?

And, how does closing GITMO takes this so called "recruiting tool" away from these groups?

Both are tools, you see them as 2 issues...but they are just 2 of the same..in terms of perception. One we have pictures from the other we just can guess whats going on there...and that one we have reports of not only torture, but also possibly even some killed there...How hard is it you think to think what they can see happening in one prison , is not happening in the other when we already know they have tortured people at GITMO?

as for what would change now if we closed it? I don't know, after 10 years I think they have all they need...it should have been dealt with years ago...By failing to deal with it , we leave open the suggestion that other things we said we would fix about the Bush screw ups, where also talk. To many so long as that place is open, the abuse will keep going...even if Obama said to end it...of course again we never should have had to say...stop torturing people there in the first place.

And the Taliban is a terrorist organization...the only reason we don't list them as one is politics. We can't call them a terrorist organization and then try to also at same time work out peace agreements in Afghanistan with them. Saying they are not a terrorist group is like in the 70's 80s saying Fatah was not one...but Black September was....by just ignoring that Black sept was just a fake name for Fatah's terrorist plans.

But I guess when the Taliban claim credit for car bombs in Time Square...I think that yes..they are a terrorist group as well as political/religious group.

 

[BigRob]

Both are tools, you see them as 2 issues...but they are just 2 of the same..in terms of perception. One we have pictures from the other we just can guess whats going on there...and that one we have reports of not only torture, but also possibly even some killed there...How hard is it you think to think what they can see happening in one prison , is not happening in the other when we already know they have tortured people at GITMO?

I didn't say it.. President Obama said it.. he said GITMO was probably the "number one" recruitment tool of jihadist groups..

The evidence does not appear to back that assertion up, and shifting the argument to discussions of Abu Ghraib offers nothing in support of "GITMO is probably the number one recruiting tool."

If the recruiting tool is "the United States tortures people", then the recruiting tool is not "GITMO". Closing the facility will change absolutely nothing in that scenario. So what is the point?

Also, we have not "tortured" anyone at GITMO...

as for what would change now if we closed it? I don't know, after 10 years I think they have all they need...it should have been dealt with years ago...By failing to deal with it , we leave open the suggestion that other things we said we would fix about the Bush screw ups, where also talk. To many so long as that place is open, the abuse will keep going...even if Obama said to end it...of course again we never should have had to say...stop torturing people there in the first place.

He did not say "stop torturing people", he "ended enhanced interrogation techniques", which are not torture.

Who are the "many" you refer to that think as long as GITMO remains open the "abuses continue"?

And the Taliban is a terrorist organization...the only reason we don't list them as one is politics. We can't call them a terrorist organization and then try to also at same time work out peace agreements in Afghanistan with them. Saying they are not a terrorist group is like in the 70's 80s saying Fatah was not one...but Black September was....by just ignoring that Black sept was just a fake name for Fatah's terrorist plans.

But I guess when the Taliban claim credit for car bombs in Time Square...I think that yes..they are a terrorist group as well as political/religious group.

The United States Government says the Taliban is not a terrorist organization...

There is a lot of reasoning behind that, but it sends a pretty clear signal (as did Obama's Afghan surge strategy) that the goal in Afghanistan is not to defeat the Taliban.

 

[PLC1]

The United States Government says the Taliban is not a terrorist organization...

There is a lot of reasoning behind that, but it sends a pretty clear signal (as did Obama's Afghan surge strategy) that the goal in Afghanistan is not to defeat the Taliban.

Then just what is the goal in Afganistan?
And if the Taliban is not a terrorist organization, why are we fighting them in the name of the "war on terror"?

That makes no sense.

 

[BigRob]

Then just what is the goal in Afganistan?

The goals for Afghanistan (and the whole AfPak area) as spelled out by President Obama are as follows:

Overall:
Our overarching goal remains the same: to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al-Q’ida in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and to prevent its capacity to threaten America and our allies in the future.”

Afghanistan:
The U.S. objectives in Afghanistan are to deny safe haven to al-Qa’ida and to deny the Taliban the ability to overthrow the Afghan government. We seek to achieve these objectives by degrading the Taliban insurgency, thereby providing time and space to build sufficient Afghan capacity.

Pakistan:
Pakistan is central to our efforts to defeat al-Qa’ida and prevent its return to the region. We seek to secure these interests through continued, robust counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency cooperation and a long-term partnership anchored by our improved understanding of Pakistan’s strategic priorities, increased civilian and military assistance, and expanded public diplomacy.

These goals were clearly defined in President Obama's speech at West Point in 2009, and restated in the Overview of the Afghanistan and Pakistan Annual Review that was put out in December 2010.

Notice the language, we want to "defeat Al Qaeda", but simply "deny the Taliban the ability to overthrow the government." That is a far cry from "defeat."

I don't know if you have read Bob Woodward's book Obama's Wars, but it has a lot of interesting back and forth and how they arrived at that exact language.

And if the Taliban is not a terrorist organization, why are we fighting them in the name of the "war on terror"?

President Bush:
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them." (2001)

That makes no sense.

Sure it does. The Taliban harbored Al Qaeda, we were attacked by Al Qaeda, and the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden. That does not make the Taliban and Al Qaeda the same, but it does make the Taliban an enemy.

 

[PLC1]

The goals for Afghanistan (and the whole AfPak area) as spelled out by President Obama are as follows:

Overall:
Our overarching goal remains the same: to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al-Q’ida in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and to prevent its capacity to threaten America and our allies in the future.”

Afghanistan:
The U.S. objectives in Afghanistan are to deny safe haven to al-Qa’ida and to deny the Taliban the ability to overthrow the Afghan government. We seek to achieve these objectives by degrading the Taliban insurgency, thereby providing time and space to build sufficient Afghan capacity.

Pakistan:
Pakistan is central to our efforts to defeat al-Qa’ida and prevent its return to the region. We seek to secure these interests through continued, robust counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency cooperation and a long-term partnership anchored by our improved understanding of Pakistan’s strategic priorities, increased civilian and military assistance, and expanded public diplomacy.

These goals were clearly defined in President Obama's speech at West Point in 2009, and restated in the Overview of the Afghanistan and Pakistan Annual Review that was put out in December 2010.

Notice the language, we want to "defeat Al Qaeda", but simply "deny the Taliban the ability to overthrow the government." That is a far cry from "defeat."

I don't know if you have read Bob Woodward's book Obama's Wars, but it has a lot of interesting back and forth and how they arrived at that exact language.



President Bush:
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them." (2001)



Sure it does. The Taliban harbored Al Qaeda, we were attacked by Al Qaeda, and the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden. That does not make the Taliban and Al Qaeda the same, but it does make the Taliban an enemy.

Given all of the above, how can we even think about giving the Taliban a part in the new government of Afganistan? And, if we don't, just how much longer are the American people going to be willing to fight a never ending war?

And, if the Taliban is not a terrorist organization, it is most certainly harboring terrorists and using them in its struggle to boot us out of Afganistan and take over the country once again.

 

[Rick]

This is the most silly ass thread I've seen in a long time.

The IF propaganda machine, plus its recruiting program, will just sort of collapse if we get rid of gitmo? What naive pap.