Waco - What Really Happened?

[Truth-Bringer]

The evidence and facts shown in the documentaries "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" http://www.waco93.com

and "Waco: A New Revelation"

http://www.getwaco.com

clearly demonstrate that the government lied on multiple occasions, and then in a routine move - the government TRIED TO COVER IT ALL UP. The government hasn't refuted ANYTHING in those films, nor could the truth in those films ever be refuted.

The truth is obvious to anyone who considers the facts. If the BATF thought Koresh was so out of control, why did their undercover agents hand their guns to Koresh to have him reload them during target practice when they had infiltrated his compound a few weeks earlier?:

http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/waco4.html

And let's say for the sake of the argument that the Sheriff was afraid to serve them with a warrant, although he has never said such, then the BATF could have asked for the Sheriff's cooperation in telling them where Koresh would go when he left the compound and they could have arrested him. It could have been a simple arrest, but the government wanted a show.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

The Branch Davidians were not crazed cultists

Some of the agents in the front of the building recalled that they first thought bullets were coming from the building, but then realized they were coming from all directions. ATF agent Rick Cook said, "It was surreal." Wayne Martin, a 42-year-old black lawyer in Waco who knew many of those in the Sheriff's Department, redialed 911.

"There are men, 75 men around our building shooting at us," said Martin. "Tell them there are children and women in here and to call it off." Lt. Larry Lynch, of the county sheriff's department, apparently unsure of what was unfolding, came to the telephone. "Hello, I hear gunfire. Oh s***, hello, who is this? Hello?"

Martin: "Call it off!"

Lynch: "Who is this? Hello? Hello? God Almighty!"

Martin: "Help! We're being attacked! This is the Mt. Carmel Center! We're under attack!"

The 911 operator disconnected them. A few minutes later, Koresh redialed 911, noting that he had been trying to call in.

"This is who?" asked a dispatcher.

"David Koresh, Mount Carmel Center. We're being shot up all out here," Koresh said, as Lynch returned to the telephone. "You killed some of my children. We told you we wanted to talk... There is a bunch of us dead and a bunch of you guys dead. Now, now, that's your fault."

Lynch: "Okay, let's try to resolve this now. Tell me this, now, you have casualties, how many casualties, do you want to try to work something out? ATF is pulling back, we're trying to, uhm--"

Koresh: "Why didn't you do that first?"

Lynch: "Okay, all I'm, all I'm doing is handling communications. I can't give you that answer, David...."

Koresh: "Yeah, well, really. let me tell you something."

Lynch: "Okay."

Koresh: "In our great country here, the United States, you know God has given us a rich history of patriotism. We're not trying to be bad guys."

Lynch was trying to reach Cavanaugh or anyone in authority at the ATF command post, but they would not respond. Martin came back on the speaker phone.

Martin: "I'm under fire!"

Lynch: "Are you hurt?"

Martin: "I'm okay."

Lynch: "Wayne, cease firing. Do you hear me, Wayne? Cease firing."

After a long pause, with only the sound of gunfire, Martin came back on. "I have a right to defend myself. (pause) They started shooting. (pause) They started firing first. There are women and children in here!"

Lynch: "Let's try and resolve this. I'm trying to make contact with the forces out there."

"Stop firing!" Off phone, Lynch hears Martin say, "Stan, don't return fire, okay?" There is a distant reply. "We haven't been." Then a storm of gunfire. "They are attacking us again!"

Lynch: "No, they're not!"

Martin: "Yes, they are! Don't call me a liar!"

http://www.thefarm.org/lifestyle/albertbates/akbwaco.html


Contrary to their intelligence assessment, ATF was not dealing with a "destructive cult" of compliant, brainwashed robots. Douglas Wayne Martin was a graduate of Harvard Law School. He had a wife and seven children. For seven years he was an assistant professor at the North Carolina Central University School of Law. Many who knew Wayne Martin describe him as a quiet, jovial and religious person, and found it hard to believe he could have been involved in anything so violent. He was routinely described as professionally competent in court. "It was common knowledge that he was a Davidian," said McLennan County Commissioner Lester Gibson, "but he never talked religion."

http://www.thefarm.org/lifestyle/albertbates/akbwaco.html

 

[Truth-Bringer]

There were some legal issues with the warrant itself:

http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/warrant.htm

Also, the BATF didn't bring the warrants--which would make their raid illegal.

2 of many questions that were never asked of Congress:

# 6. Why didn't BATF tell Congress it had no plan for peaceful service of warrants--and that agents forgot to bring the warrants?

** BATF did not have a no knock warrant which would allow them to bust in unannounced, yet they never practiced anything but a forced entry into several parts of the building at once. (When one representative asked what happened when BATF went out to "knock on their door and they started shooting," BATF officials did not correct his misconception.)

** Agents did not have a plan to stop their aggressive actions in busting into the house even if Koresh immediately surrendered.

** No agent was assigned to announce the warrant, no Davidians heard them do so, and no agents originally admitted doing so--until after they talked with Treasury Department agents.

** At trial agents admitted agents actually forgot to bring the warrants with them when they raided Mount Carmel.

# 7. Why didn't BATF tell Congress it expected a "shootout"?

** BATF agents expected a shootout. Agents admitted they anticipated they would be met with force and that agents were told to mark their blood types on their necks for medical purposes if they were wounded.

** The Treasury report admits the newsman who accidently warned a Davidian about the upcoming raid said it would be a "shootout" involving helicopters, obviously what agents were telling others.

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.questions.html

 

[The_Giver]

I have no idea how I had never heard about this... almost reads like fiction.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

I have no idea how I had never heard about this... almost reads like fiction.

You never heard about it because the government lied and the media never bothered to question the government. Go rent those DVDs and you'll learn quite a bit. They're available on Netflix if you're a member.

 

[vyo476]

You've gathered an impressive wealth of information here, but I still can't help but feel like most of what happened to the Branch-Dividians in Waco had more to do with government ineptitude in handling cults than about conspiracy. Yeah, the government messed things up in Waco, but no one's shy about admitting it. No, it doesn't particularly matter to anyone anymore - but how many people today spend time thinking about Jonestown? Granted, there are HUGE differences between Jonestown and Waco, but both involved a large scale tragedy, and no one really cares anymore. Passage of time, not government cover-up.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

You've gathered an impressive wealth of information here, but I still can't help but feel like most of what happened to the Branch-Dividians in Waco had more to do with government ineptitude in handling cults than about conspiracy. Yeah, the government messed things up in Waco, but no one's shy about admitting it. No, it doesn't particularly matter to anyone anymore - but how many people today spend time thinking about Jonestown? Granted, there are HUGE differences between Jonestown and Waco, but both involved a large scale tragedy, and no one really cares anymore. Passage of time, not government cover-up.

Go rent those DVDs and you may feel differently.

 

[Rokerijdude11]

great info

 

[Freethinker]

IMHO Koresh was a charlitan meglomaniac when he found out how easily he could manipulate people he took on an ego of self aggrandisment he literally thought he was god. He soon embarked on endevors relating to greater power including military might. Left unchecked he would have no doubt created an army of christian killers. We as a country were lucky to have a justice system at that time who could see the danger he was to the country and the world and cut him down in the nick of time. Janet Reno is my hero.

 

[Abraxis Axis]

hahahahah
Janet Sterno

 

[Truth-Bringer]

Left unchecked he would have no doubt created an army of christian killers.

ROTFLMAO. Yeah, right... And Saddam would have taken over the world with his thousands of WMD's if we hadn't gone into Iraq. You demonstrate the same "reasoning" as Bushie & Company.

 

[Freethinker]

You tell me what a "good christian " church leader wants hundreds of automatic weapons for... Oh yeah they were gun show "investments".Hah
When that bastard found out from the ATF he couldnt go unchecked as a gun toting, bible thumpin', power hungry, self diafied, insestuious child molester, the cowardly slime ball set fire to his own compoud and shot himself. It was exactly like Jonestown without the kool-aid. I can't understand why the Feds let him go so long holding his own children and followers as hostages.
Bushie and company need to be impeached and convicted for the WMD lies perpertrated on the American people and the Iraqis were 1000 times better off under Sadam than under the Bush regime. And what the hell does that have to do with Koresh anyhow???

 

[Abraxis Axis]

You tell me what a "good christian " church leader wants hundreds of automatic weapons for... Oh yeah they were gun show "investments".Hah


Soon enough you will see why they had those weapons and that ideology.... although they were way out there.... SOME of theyre ideology it seems is in sync in todays world


When that bastard found out from the ATF he couldnt go unchecked as a gun toting, bible thumpin', power hungry, self diafied, insestuious child molester, the cowardly slime ball set fire to his own compoud and shot himself.


what planet or cave are you living in? Janet Sterno issued the orders that sealed that fate of the Davidians...... this guy was a whackjob but apprently no moreso that Janet Sterno...(reno)

there is CONCLUSIVE video footage and documentary footage that chronicles the ATF and FBI incompetence that SET FIRE to the compound

your dis-illusioned as well as mis-informed that compound was burned by federal agents under orders by Sterno(reno)



It was exactly like Jonestown without the kool-aid. I can't understand why the Feds let him go so long holding his own children and followers as hostages.


once again your limited knowledge and understanding of what REALLY happened at waco is apparent....it was NOTHING like Jonestown you need to learn before you speak ....hows that foot tasting right now?

Bushie and company need to be impeached and convicted for the WMD lies perpertrated on the American people and the Iraqis were 1000 times better off under Sadam than under the Bush regime. And what the hell does that have to do with Koresh anyhow???

ummmmm im with ya here on all of this i agree

 

[Freethinker]

I saw those supposed "documentary" movies about the insanity that happened at Waco. The movies were made employing emotional manipulation cherry picked "testimony" of Davidians and in no way were an impartial representation of what happened or what Koresh was. They may as well have been produced by Koreshes P.R. man. The "evidence " of which you speak was, at best contrived, without any scientific merit and not at all convincing to anyone without sympathies toward Koresh and his made up wacked out religion. The movie with its ominous droning music and the narrators solemn foretelling tone revealed this conspiratorial and accusitory piece of fantasy for what it is ...a one sided propagandic tabloid hunk of trash.
You were suckered in.

I can't imagine any recent example that could be more like Jonestown than Waco is. From the new salvation nature of the wackjob cult, to the obvious dillusions of absolute power the leader was under and his proclivity towards paranoyac violence and total control. Also his resignation to kill all in his cult, including himself rather than face the secular justice of the real world.

Some of those among us, felt Koresh was "in sync with the modern world" and decided blowing up a government building in Oklahoma was a good idea to comemorate the anniversary. I suggest you reconsider the company you keep, in your sympathy for this scumball Koresh.

 

[OPGhostdog]

Janet Reno is my Zero.

This is another example of the Government committing a unwanted
situation. I can't believe what happened in Waco. That situation
could have been handled far better then it was handled. To me
the Government could not resisted the thought of being nosie,
and had to create a problem with these people on the compound.

The question is..Why did the Government feel insecured in the
first place? What I think was the Government was affaid that
the Davidians was preparing for a revolution to happen, and
Janet Reno wanted to make a name for herself by taking out
the entire cult.

This is how our Government thinks, and our own government don't
give a damn about you or me. I have to agree with the majority of
the following quote by vyo476. [ Posted by vyo476]
I still can't help but feel like most of what happened to the
Branch-Dividians in Waco had more to do with government
ineptitude in handling cults than about conspiracy. Yeah,
the government messed things up in Waco, but no one's shy
about admitting it. No, it doesn't particularly matter to anyone
anymore - but how many people today spend time thinking about
Jonestown? Granted, there are HUGE differences between Jonestown
and Waco, but both involved a large scale tragedy, and no one really
cares anymore. Passage of time, not government cover-up.

Look at the Women and Children that was killed because of a
government error, and we are suppose to be PROUD of that?
The Davidians reminded me of groups like the Mormons or the
Quakers. They was in their own little world, and their world was
invaded. Again, It was a conspiracy by the government to go
after these people.

In closing the Government went after these people like Bush
invaded Iraq, and by the Davidian community being small they
was ready to handle the invaders. Jonestown was a complete
different situation. Jimmy Jones was responsible for what did
happen in Jonestown.