What is a liberal, anyway?

[PLC1]

I posted a thread like this one quite some time ago, but, since we now have some new members, here's a repeat. let's see if there is a generally agreed upon definition this time around.

I'm posting in the US politics forum, since we need to focus on the term as it applies to the US. A pol who is considered to be a liberal here might not be in Europe or Asia.

My contention is that there is no meaning to the word "liberal", or, perhaps it is better said that there are so many different definitions that the term has become meaningless.

Further, it is my contention that there are many people who consider themselves "conservatives", another vague term, and lump all liberals into one group. The real working definition of the term, then, is "anyone who disagrees with my point of view."

Are the terms "liberal" and "statist" synonymous? Is liberalism the same as authoritarianism? Are foreign dictators like Stalin and Mao really the same as our home grown liberals? Does one have to be pro life to be a non liberal, and if so, how does that relate to authoritarianism? What about same sex marriage, is it liberal to want to limit marriage to one's own view of the matter, or is it liberal to recognize gay rights as valid? Which point of view is authoritarian?

I'm really wanting to invite clarification rather than debate, here.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

don't forget that Anarchist who want no government are the same as liberals who want government to control everything....

 

[CoachV40]

Here are some definitions for the word "liberal" from dictionary.com.........

• Favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs. (I would tend to agree that this definition would match a U.S. liberal with the qualifier that the progress has to be made under the rule of government.)

• Favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties. (I would say that this one in the political world would be more closely related to conservatives. The reason that I would say that is because most U.S. liberals seem to favor the removal of individual freedoms and replacing them with government permissions and oversights. Because unavoidably fairness will get in the way and the government will have to make it all "equal.")

•Favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers. (I guess you could give this one to liberals as long as your not referring to a belief in God as your personal belief.)

•Free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners. (Again, I will give this one to liberals. Especially, on the attitude toward foreigners......since they mostly seem to just want to let anyone in and place them on government assistance. As far as the prejudice and bogotry portion goes, I would interject that this exists on both sides, and that for the most part these areas have improve greatly in the last 100 years.)

And now some good natured fun:

You know you're a liberal if...


1. Your convinced that Obama learned nothing while hanging out with Ayers and Wright. After all Wright only preached like that on Sundays when Obama wasn't there, and Ayers was just a guy from the neighborhood.


2. Sweden has the ideal society.


3. Martin Sheen is an actor who is smart enough to engage in political discussion. Ronald Reagan should never have been elected President because he's just an actor, for crying out loud.


4. The amount of money it will cost each individual citizen to pay for the WAR is important to consider. The amount of money welfare, food stamps, and medicare cost each individual citizen is irrelevant, and selfish to consider.


5. When people are critical of the current administration with you, your face becomes red, you raise your voice and say things like: "Bush lied" and "blood for oil" and "Greed" repeatedly.


6. You think Helen Thomas is an intelligent, gutsy lady and a dynamite reporter.


7. You think all war is evil. And Jimmy Carter is a voice a reason.


8. You're still not clear about what exactly was wrong with Communism.


9. Your parents paid for you to go to an expensive private college and five years later you still spend more time protesting than earning a living.


10. You don't like the sight of guns or soldiers, even in a Disney movie.


Sorry if this is full of typo's I did this in a bit of a hurry.

 

[Gipper]

Oh my...

Short answer...someone who is terribly misguided.

 

[PLC1]

Here are some definitions for the word "liberal" from dictionary.com.........

• Favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs. (I would tend to agree that this definition would match a U.S. liberal with the qualifier that the progress has to be made under the rule of government.)

So, a liberal would not be in favor of progress in, say for example, electronics, as that is done through the private sector?

Or is it that a liberal would be neutral to such progress, as it isn't done through government?

• Favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties. (I would say that this one in the political world would be more closely related to conservatives. The reason that I would say that is because most U.S. liberals seem to favor the removal of individual freedoms and replacing them with government permissions and oversights. Because unavoidably fairness will get in the way and the government will have to make it all "equal.")

Maximum individual freedom? I wonder if that one is really liberal or conservative. Isn't it the position of the conservatives that the government should decide who gets to marry, and who can and can not have an abortion? Isn't it conservative to continue the war on drugs? On the other hand, it does seem to be the left side of the aisle that likes gun control (they got shot down recently, didn't they?) no pun intended, or was it?

Are Libertarians liberal, conservative, or neither?

•Favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers. (I guess you could give this one to liberals as long as your not referring to a belief in God as your personal belief.)

Is atheism a liberal belief, then? Aren't there some churches out there that consider themselves to be liberal, Episcopalians for example? Are those church organizations really conservative?

•Free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners. (Again, I will give this one to liberals. Especially, on the attitude toward foreigners......since they mostly seem to just want to let anyone in and place them on government assistance. As far as the prejudice and bogotry portion goes, I would interject that this exists on both sides, and that for the most part these areas have improve greatly in the last 100 years.)

Yes, there is a lot less racism than there used to be. Is that a liberal or a conservative achievement, or neither?

No, the government hasn't done much to stop illegal immigration, not through several administrations with different ideologies. Have all of those administrations been liberal, then?


Posted by Gipper:

Oh my...

Short answer...someone who is terribly misguided.

Now, there's a nice simplistic answer. Anyone who is terribly misguided is a liberal. Anyone who thinks that they can refute modern science by reading ancient writings, anyone who thinks invading Iraq was a great idea, anyone who tries to deny the holocaust, all are terribly misguided, and therefore liberals.

Misguided according to whom?

 

[Fisher of Men]

As a general rule:

19th century liberals like small government.

20th century liberals prefer big government, sometimes even vast centralized bureaucracies.

 

[bododie]

Liberal: Someone who wants everyone esle to pitch in to pay for what they need, so they can spend all their money on what they want.Lol.

 

[Fisher of Men]

Time Series Chart of US Government Spending

 

[Fisher of Men]

But what's really interesting is that utopian dreams and anarchy often lead to dictatorship. License is not the enemy of despotism - often the two go hand and hand.

 

[PLC1]

Time Series Chart of US Government Spending

That's an interesting graph.

What are we to conclude from it?

Obviously, the two big spikes are due to WWI and WWII. Other than that, are the declines due to conservative administrations, then, and the increases due to liberal ones?

 

[Fisher of Men]

The New Deal Era saw a large increase in the size of government. Conservatives were not able to roll back this increase. Conservatives, particularly during the Cold War, favored high defense spending.

 

[Little-Acorn]

That's an interesting graph.

Here's another, from data available on Federal Govt website (see source at bottom).

.

 

[Gipper]

Posted by Gipper:

Now, there's a nice simplistic answer. Anyone who is terribly misguided is a liberal. Anyone who thinks that they can refute modern science by reading ancient writings, anyone who thinks invading Iraq was a great idea, anyone who tries to deny the holocaust, all are terribly misguided, and therefore liberals.

Misguided according to whom?

This is becoming a pattern. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I did not say anyone who is misguided is a liberal. I said a liberal is misguided. Can you see the difference or are you too simple?

Secondly, we have gone over this subject many times the past several months. I have made my opinions known regarding liberals. So, no need for me to go into detail is there?

 

[PLC1]

This is becoming a pattern. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Yes, it is. It shouldn't be wasted by not thinking through one's philosophy.

I did not say anyone who is misguided is a liberal. I said a liberal is misguided. Can you see the difference or are you too simple?

In response to the question, What is a liberal anyway? you posted:

Short answer...someone who is terribly misguided

.

So, according to what you wrote, a the definition of "liberal" is someone who is terribly misguided. Perhaps you meant to say something else, but the rest of us can't read your mind, after all, so can only respond to what you have written.

Secondly, we have gone over this subject many times the past several months. I have made my opinions known regarding liberals. So, no need for me to go into detail is there?

Yes, your opinions regarding liberals are quite clear: You believe that they re misguided individuals who are responsible for a whole host of ills.

But, what is the definition of "liberal"? All I have been able to glean from your posts is that the term can apply to anyone with whom you disagree, ranging from anarchists to big government statists, and anything else in between. You have lumped quite a diverse group under one umbrella, or so it seems. Perhaps what you posted doesn't represent what you believe, but then, we have no way of knowing that do we?

So far, you haven't convinced me, or probably anyone else reading this thread, that you have thought through your political opinions.

 

[Gipper]

I don't think you give a sh*t what I think on this subject.

Plus, I think most people know WTF a liberal is!

They are on TV every night. They walk the streets. They are in the schools. They have infested the government. They even chew gum and pick their noses at the same time.