What is a liberal, anyway?

PLC1

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I don't think you give a sh*t what I think on this subject.

Plus, I think most people know WTF a liberal is!

They are on TV every night. They walk the streets. They are in the schools. They have infested the government. They even chew gum and pick their noses at the same time.

Of course I'm interested in what you think a liberal is. That's the purpose of this thread, after all.

Most people think they know what a liberal is, but they tend to give a lot of different definitions to the term. There is no commonly agreed upon idea of what constitutes a liberal.

On another thread, you posted:

The communist left now runs the USA and has much influence throughout the West in very facet of government, society, and culture.

The American administration is full of commies. BO is a Marxist, which if you knew anything about this subject you would know a commie and a Marxist are essentially the same thing. The American press, education, entertainment are full of commies.

Now, this Communist Left that has taken over our nation, are they themselves liberals, or are the liberals just tools of the people who are really running things?
 
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PLC1

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Why don't you tell us what a liberal is?

You probably aren't going to agree with my definition, but to me a liberal is someone who sees a strong central government as a positive thing, a solution to problems. A liberal is someone who wants to see changes brought about by the government to encourage social justice and individual liberty.

That's about it. Pretty much everything that relates to liberal thinking revolves around the government as a positive force for change.

Communism is pretty much the antithesis of liberalism, as it allows for no individual liberty. The same could be said for any dictatorship. Anarchism is another opposite, as it posits that government is the problem, and should be abolished.

Lumping Communism, anarchy, Maoism, Marxism, and a lot of other opposing isms under the term "liberal" simply doesn't work for me.
 

Fisher of Men

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A liberal is someone who wants to see changes brought about by the government to encourage social justice and individual liberty.
PLC1, the big problem with your definition is that big government means regulation and high taxes - both of which translate into less individual freedom. If you are a ward of the state you don't possess much in the way of liberty.

Here's some examples of Democrats and liberal Republicans interfering in our lives.

article: New York Nanny State of Mind
What will they try to ban next?

link: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/new-york-nanny-state-mind
 

Pandora

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Here's another, from data available on Federal Govt website (see source at bottom).

.
FedSpend00.gif

It seems 2008/2009 it goes off the charts, how far off the charts did it go?
 

PLC1

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PLC1, the big problem with your definition is that big government means regulation and high taxes - both of which translate into less individual freedom. If you are a ward of the state you don't possess much in the way of liberty.

Here's some examples of Democrats and liberal Republicans interfering in our lives.

article: New York Nanny State of Mind
What will they try to ban next?

link: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/new-york-nanny-state-mind

Remember, I'm not describing my own political philosophy, but trying to define what liberal philosophy is. My own philosophy is much more complex than that.

That said, you're right that big government can be inimical to individual liberty.
 

Fisher of Men

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In 2010, in the U.S., when people say "liberal" they mean this:
govt-pig.jpg


The line between Republicans and Democrats (conservatives and liberals) has become blurred. George Bush indulged in a spending spree, he increased both military and domestic spending.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act

Obama, despite his radical (chic) background, has found it necessary to mimic many of Bush's policies.

Politicians scratch and screech at each other, but this is mostly play-acting.
 

Fisher of Men

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The pro-life position can be considered a libertarian, pro-individual freedom stance.

quote: Nonetheless, libertarianism's basic principle is that each of us has the obligation not to aggress against (violate the rights of) anyone else -- for any reason (personal, social, or political), however worthy. That is a clearly pro-life principle.

link: http://www.l4l.org/
 

Pandora

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I posted a thread like this one quite some time ago, but, since we now have some new members, here's a repeat. let's see if there is a generally agreed upon definition this time around.

I'm posting in the US politics forum, since we need to focus on the term as it applies to the US. A pol who is considered to be a liberal here might not be in Europe or Asia.

My contention is that there is no meaning to the word "liberal", or, perhaps it is better said that there are so many different definitions that the term has become meaningless.

Further, it is my contention that there are many people who consider themselves "conservatives", another vague term, and lump all liberals into one group. The real working definition of the term, then, is "anyone who disagrees with my point of view."

Are the terms "liberal" and "statist" synonymous? Is liberalism the same as authoritarianism? Are foreign dictators like Stalin and Mao really the same as our home grown liberals? Does one have to be pro life to be a non liberal, and if so, how does that relate to authoritarianism? What about same sex marriage, is it liberal to want to limit marriage to one's own view of the matter, or is it liberal to recognize gay rights as valid? Which point of view is authoritarian?

I'm really wanting to invite clarification rather than debate, here.


The question is much like asking what a Christian is. Its many things to many people. Christians today are nothing like the first Christians, heck they are not even like a Christian from 50 years ago. Same goes for liberals.

The word liberal is just a word used to describe the far left. Some of the left is further than others so you could use liberal for one and marxist for another and so on. The point is, its a way to distance the extreme left from the normal democrats out there.

Mostly liberal to me means a really stupid person who does not think about the consequences of their actions and are more wrapped up in how it feels, sounds, looks. and all the good intentions they feel their ideas have.

But it usually ends up meaning bigger government and more government control over people. Most of the laws they come up with are unfair, unjust and just flat stupid.

Even when they are proven wrong they refuse to admit it.
They hide the new laws they implement with confusing names straight out of 1984 like "the fairness doctrine"

They advocate for crazy rules like if you touch an owls egg even if you know for a fact it has not been fertilized it is still a crime. You can not go without a seat belt or bike helmet even though your own life is the only life wearing them could save. BUT you can tear your child out of your body limb by limb and it's a choice.

If the far left (liberals) had their way there would be no school choice, we would all be forced to go to government schools. (their kids excluded of course)

The biggest problem I see with liberals is they always seem to know what is best for you and do their best to push their ideas and agenda on you and they have absolute disdain for the individual

Your normal main stream democrat does not think this way, but the far left (liberals) run their party for them.

Here in Oregon the liberals fought to get rid of the timber industry and logging. They used the spotted owl as the reason. Nice democrats wanted to help the owl too and just about every mill in the town closed. Most democrats are fine with helping an owl or the snowy plover or what ever creature the liberals drag to the stage but not at the expense of their jobs.

If you asked most democrats if it seemed reasonable to them that the government can force you to wear a seat belt, helmet or jail you for touching an owls egg but it's ok to have an abortion up to the 9th month for any reason. Most democrats would say, well when you put it that way... no! That does not seem right or consistent. A surprising number of democrats would say.... What is a partial birth abortion?

I would be perfectly fine living in a world of liberals if they didn't insist that we or I have to live like them. Its when they drag me along kicking and screaming, forcing me to live under their retarded rules, insist on teaching my kids socialism in class and raunchy sex ed. that I start having a problem.

What is todays liberal is yesterdays progressives and actually tomorrows progressives too. They are like DHS or CSD or what ever name they go by now. When they screw up enough to have to change their names but never their policy's
 

pocketfullofshells

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That's an interesting graph.

usgs_line.php


What are we to conclude from it?

Obviously, the two big spikes are due to WWI and WWII. Other than that, are the declines due to conservative administrations, then, and the increases due to liberal ones?

so IO changed the dates to show something interesting here..

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com...tack=1&size=l&title=&state=US&color=c&local=s

see how it goes down 1975-80...Carter
Spikes up, Regan/Bush 1980 -92
Drops big after 1992. to 2000 Clinton
and goes back up again as soon as it hits 2000...
Big spike happens...right as Houseing, Banks, auto markets all crash just as Bush is leaving office in the last year ,.....
 

PLC1

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The question is much like asking what a Christian is. Its many things to many people. Christians today are nothing like the first Christians, heck they are not even like a Christian from 50 years ago. Same goes for liberals.

The word liberal is just a word used to describe the far left. Some of the left is further than others so you could use liberal for one and marxist for another and so on. The point is, its a way to distance the extreme left from the normal democrats out there.

Mostly liberal to me means a really stupid person who does not think about the consequences of their actions and are more wrapped up in how it feels, sounds, looks. and all the good intentions they feel their ideas have.

But it usually ends up meaning bigger government and more government control over people. Most of the laws they come up with are unfair, unjust and just flat stupid.

Even when they are proven wrong they refuse to admit it.
They hide the new laws they implement with confusing names straight out of 1984 like "the fairness doctrine"

They advocate for crazy rules like if you touch an owls egg even if you know for a fact it has not been fertilized it is still a crime. You can not go without a seat belt or bike helmet even though your own life is the only life wearing them could save. BUT you can tear your child out of your body limb by limb and it's a choice.

If the far left (liberals) had their way there would be no school choice, we would all be forced to go to government schools. (their kids excluded of course)

The biggest problem I see with liberals is they always seem to know what is best for you and do their best to push their ideas and agenda on you and they have absolute disdain for the individual

Your normal main stream democrat does not think this way, but the far left (liberals) run their party for them.

Here in Oregon the liberals fought to get rid of the timber industry and logging. They used the spotted owl as the reason. Nice democrats wanted to help the owl too and just about every mill in the town closed. Most democrats are fine with helping an owl or the snowy plover or what ever creature the liberals drag to the stage but not at the expense of their jobs.

If you asked most democrats if it seemed reasonable to them that the government can force you to wear a seat belt, helmet or jail you for touching an owls egg but it's ok to have an abortion up to the 9th month for any reason. Most democrats would say, well when you put it that way... no! That does not seem right or consistent. A surprising number of democrats would say.... What is a partial birth abortion?

I would be perfectly fine living in a world of liberals if they didn't insist that we or I have to live like them. Its when they drag me along kicking and screaming, forcing me to live under their retarded rules, insist on teaching my kids socialism in class and raunchy sex ed. that I start having a problem.

What is todays liberal is yesterdays progressives and actually tomorrows progressives too. They are like DHS or CSD or what ever name they go by now. When they screw up enough to have to change their names but never their policy's

I think your first paragraph sums it up pretty well: Liberalism is many things to many people, and it is not the same as it was years ago.

This part is interesting:

they always seem to know what is best for you and do their best to push their ideas and agenda on you and they have absolute disdain for the individual

as it seems to describe authoritarian thought from both the right and the left.
 

pocketfullofshells

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I don't think you give a sh*t what I think on this subject.

Plus, I think most people know WTF a liberal is!

They are on TV every night. They walk the streets. They are in the schools. They have infested the government. They even chew gum and pick their noses at the same time.

I think you have no clue what a liberal is. or a communist, or a socialist,or anything.

If I told you under a president Government spending went way up, debt went way up, the leader made deals with terrorist nations hostile to the US, when US troops where sent into a nation, but when some where killed, quickly pulled out and did not do anything to respond....also talks where held and arms reduced after deals with communist nations.. would this be what you think of as LIberal?
 
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pocketfullofshells

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Here's another, from data available on Federal Govt website (see source at bottom).

.
FedSpend00.gif

well see lets just not pay off the interest on the debt then, its not constitutional!


Also funny how for 100 years, no court has ever ruled Health spending, Education, SS, Medicare to be against the constitution...must be that no one on the supreme court knows what the constitution says...

that or your just wrong...

hmmm all those People on the Supreme court...or you...who do I believe....hard one....

But if we ever put Education as a state issue....I call for a quick civil war, because I don't want to have to deal with the mindless retards that mant states in the south will pull out...since they fail horribly as it is...and they get alot more funding then they put in...so cut there budgets even more...fun times..

I can just imagine how great of a state Alabama could be with no federal help....scary....20 years from now would be a 3rd world nation .
 
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