Wolves as control?

[ASPCA4EVER]

But man did interfere with the natural order of things.
Now, just what is your "common sense" suggestion for controlling the over population of deer and elk in state parks? And perhaps you can apply your "solution" to the over population of deer that Jackson, Michigan is having, within the city, in its parks (they have hired "sharp shooters" to kill them). Also, perhaps you can suggest that Hillsdale, Michigan use your solution also, with their over population of deer that live within that little town. Please attempt to be clear and concise in you answer.

Maybe you didn't understand my 'COMMON SENSE' as the; "I'm all for supporting the natural balance of things ie allowing mother nature to take care of the population as she did prior to mankind's interference and eliminating the wolf packs from the wildlife and man did that to this planet.

While I understand Bunz's issue with the attacks on the domesticated dogs who are left chained out in the areas that once belonged to the natural order of things...Wolfs are pragmatic...when the only source of fresh meat is something standing right there like a staked out young deer they will kill it and would stick around and eat it or drag it off {oops that chain seems to be a problem} to be shared with the rest of the pack but then the humans finally arrive and scare off the wolves and OH-MY LOOK AT THE CARNAGE THAT WAS LEFT BEHIND...

A Wolf acting like wolves is what they do when their food: caribou, sick/elder moose, rabbits have disappeared due to weather extremes or just mother natures unusual cycles of species decline. Allowing the caribou/deer/elk population to become to large without some natural controls only adds to the natural diseases that are breed within the herd...the weakening disease {AKA mad cow} is very prevalent within the deer/elk population and its getting more common with each passing year. We used to always eat the meat from our hunt but not so much anymore.

I'm all for bringing back what mother nature intended for the balance of the natural order of predator/prey...GO WOLVES

 

[dahermit]

Maybe you didn't understand my 'COMMON SENSE' as the; "I'm all for supporting the natural balance of things ie allowing mother nature to take care of the population as she did prior to mankind's interference and eliminating the wolf packs from the wildlife and man did that to this planet.

And your "common sense" plan for Jackson, MI and Hillsdale's over population of deer within the city is??? Do nothing and let the populations continue to increase?

Lets see, deer become so common that they are seen wonderer the streets everywhere. Then, Chronic wasting disease (like they have in Wisconsin), and other diseases infects the herd. Then, it spreads to the local population of domestic sheep, pigs, cattle, etc. Yup, nature took care of it.

 

[dogtowner]

And your "common sense" plan for Jackson, MI and Hillsdale's over population of deer within the city is??? Do nothing and let the populations continue to increase?

Lets see, deer become so common that they are seen wonderer the streets everywhere. Then, Chronic wasting disease (like they have in Wisconsin), and other diseases infects the herd. Then, it spreads to the local population of domestic sheep, pigs, cattle, etc. Yup, nature took care of it.

deer are a real problem all over, we're upto our asses in them.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

And your "common sense" plan for Jackson, MI and Hillsdale's over population of deer within the city is??? Do nothing and let the populations continue to increase?

Lets see, deer become so common that they are seen wonderer the streets everywhere. Then, Chronic wasting disease (like they have in Wisconsin), and other diseases infects the herd. Then, it spreads to the local population of domestic sheep, pigs, cattle, etc. Yup, nature took care of it.

You must have missed my last sentence: here it is again>

I'm all for bringing back what mother nature intended for the balance of the natural order of predator/prey...GO WOLVES

Selling deer tags doesn't seem to be a viable working method of control...we have a deer population that is steadily growing out of control right here in Kansas...but the coyotes have been decimated by placing a bounty upon them for years {60's-80's} now it's left up to a few deer tags being sold and the highway system taking it's fair share of the population...but the deer are still multiplying like rabbits.

 

[dogtowner]

You must have missed my last sentence: here it is again>

Selling deer tags doesn't seem to be a viable working method of control...we have a deer population that is steadily growing out of control right here in Kansas...but the coyotes have been decimated by placing a bounty upon them for years {60's-80's} now it's left up to a few deer tags being sold and the highway system taking it's fair share of the of the population...but the deer are still multiplying like rabbits.

you want to set wolves loose in suburbia ?

 

[dahermit]

One of the biological arguments for using wolves instead of people with guns is that the wolves eat the weakest and improve the breed thereby, but humans take the very best, the biggest bucks, the biggest trophies and weaken the breed.

This would seem to be theoretically true however, if you had long personal history of deer hunting (instead of just reading about it), you would know that it is not just the large bucks that are being harvested. Many, many "antler-less" deer are being taken each year. In Michigan, the DNR manipulates the population with such antler-less permits.

Another point is that the deer population has increased dramatically because of logging. Deer browse on brush rather than grazing on grass, so the more trees that get cut the more brush grows up providing habitat for deer.

Again, deer being browsers rather than grazers is not true or there would be no point in planting bait plots ( a common practice to lure deer). If you actually observed deer behavior (I no longer hunt and actually spend hours doing this), you would observe that deer graze and do not resort to browsing until the snow is too deep to access grazing plants. Browsing is usually an act of desperation.

As people continue to encroach on wilderness areas we will see more problems with hunting since deer rifles can shoot well over a mile. Like the coyotes in LA we are going to see more and more deer in residential areas--probably eating your Mother's zinnias.

Most hunting rifles accidents are the result of mistaking another hunter for a deer in the dark (illegal shooting while still dark). A bullet striking a person from a long distance almost never happens. Before the mandate for wearing blaze orange, there were about 13-14 deaths each year from hunting accidents in Michigan. Now, 1-3 a year, always mistaking a human for a deer. None in the last 30 years from an errant bullet, because a rifle can shoot over a mile. In short hunting deaths of humans only involves the participants who are will to assume the risk.
Deer do not eat my mother's zinnias. She has been dead for many years...in case you were suggesting that I am young, naive, inexperienced, or uneducated. I am a former hunter, 66 years old, with a relatively high I.Q, and a master's degree plus (just in case that was intended as an insult).

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

you want to set wolves loose in suburbia ?

ROTFLMAO...as your usual custom to twist the wording around to suit your needs/benefit...WHY, OF COURSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID...now run along while the adults have a discussion about over population of deer and the reasons that it's gotten out of hand

 

[Pidgey]

You must have missed my last sentence: here it is again>

Selling deer tags doesn't seem to be a viable working method of control...we have a deer population that is steadily growing out of control right here in Kansas...but the coyotes have been decimated by placing a bounty upon them for years {60's-80's} now it's left up to a few deer tags being sold and the highway system taking it's fair share of the population...but the deer are still multiplying like rabbits.

How long's your season and what are the limits? Frankly, you've got a lot of grain production, which is a higher-octane fuel for them than what they would normally get. It's just a new equilibrium.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

This would seem to be theoretically true however, if you had long personal history of deer hunting (instead of just reading about it), you would know that it is not just the large bucks that are being harvested. Many, many "antler-less" deer are being taken each year. In Michigan, the DNR manipulates the population with such antler-less permits.

Here in Kansas the Wildlife Parks Department have extended both the bow/gun hunting season...but more permits are sold to out of state hunters who may or may not come in to do their trophy hunting...the locals are sadly being shut out by this process. And along with that the FHFH {Farmers-Hunters-Feeding-Humanity} has had to struggle to supply the protein rich deer meat for the food pantries.

Again, deer being browsers rather than grazers is not true or there would be no point in planting bait plots ( a common practice to lure deer). If you actually observed deer behavior (I no longer hunt and actually spend hours doing this), you would observe that deer graze and do not resort to browsing until the snow is too deep to access grazing plants. Browsing is usually an act of desperation.

If controlled urban sprawl was developed to leave green areas that had the type of trees that deer gravitate to for their protein/food supply such as acorn trees then these areas would/could be monitored for counting/tagging, herd downsizing accordingly...but with most uncontrolled development the urban sprawl doesn't want nor allow for those 'wasted acreages' and the wild life just gets shoved out without a thought process/plan for what happens when the deer population becomes a problem...
OOHHH THEY ARE EATING MY LANDSCAPE PLANTS...yep, right where your house sits used to be a woodland area that they historically grazed in!

Most hunting rifles accidents are the result of mistaking another hunter for a deer in the dark (illegal shooting while still dark). A bullet striking a person from a long distance almost never happens.

Out of state drive by hunting kills quite a few cattle, recently one teenage boy killed, houses hit, farm machinery hit, barns and out buildings with bullet holes in them...ignorance and weapons being shot out of vehicles...very problematic and only getting worse around here. Not how I was raised, not how I was taught to hunt...very scary to live in a rural setting during hunting season even with 'NO HUNTING' signs posted!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

How long's your season and what are the limits? Frankly, you've got a lot of grain production, which is a higher-octane fuel for them than what they would normally get. It's just a new equilibrium.

Bow season was extended for two extra weeks just this year...I believe it started in October and ran right past the 15th of December then gun season opened up. I'm to old for tracking into the woods...but my neighbor keeps me supplied with deer meat!

Yes this year there was a lot of grain still out in the fields {corn/milo/cane/soybeans} due to the abundance of rainfall but right before breeding season the deer start stocking up on the rich proteins from the acorn/pecan trees that are around the woodland areas.

 

[dogtowner]

they are dogs...Its hard to belive that they would act different then we see in evryday life with household dogs..sometimes someone gets bit.

welcome to nature folks...we cant always be the top of the food chain.

People get so bent out of shape, what if a animal attacks...well guess we kill billions of them a year...so maybe they get a few licks in...

Dogs are domesticated, wolves are not.

To compare the two is dangerously foolish.

 

[dahermit]

Dogs are domesticated, wolves are not.

To compare the two is dangerously foolish.

I agree. Wolves are not the same as dogs. I can personally attest to that. I my pants cuff was "attacked" once by an old, half blind chihuahua. I was going about my business when I felt a tugging on my pants leg. The little dog was just a'chew'en away on my pants cuff...it was very funny. Now, if that had been a wolf, I am sure the bite would have been higher up, and not so funny.

 

[dahermit]

Selling deer tags doesn't seem to be a viable working method of control...we have a deer population that is steadily growing out of control right here in Kansas...but the coyotes have been decimated by placing a bounty upon them for years {60's-80's} now it's left up to a few deer tags being sold and the highway system taking it's fair share of the population...but the deer are still multiplying like rabbits.

The current practices and controls on sport hunting is not controling the deer population. But, that does not mean that rules that govern "hunting" could not be changed (albeit temporarily) to increase the harvest. For instance, a one month "market hunt" season, after the sport season where in a person could sell x number of deer to non-hunters to eat. In short there are many changes that could be temporarily used to control the population that involved the system that is already in place and willing to participate...hunters.

 

[Pidgey]

Yeah, if population control was the actual object, it wouldn't take very long at all to rebalance the equation. Of course, the cattlegrowers association might be annoyed at the drop in business...

 

[dogtowner]

The current practices and controls on sport hunting is not controling the deer population. But, that does not mean that rules that govern "hunting" could not be changed (albeit temporarily) to increase the harvest. For instance, a one month "market hunt" season, after the sport season where in a person could sell x number of deer to non-hunters to eat. In short there are many changes that could be temporarily used to control the population that involved the system that is already in place and willing to participate...hunters.

and ease up on taking does. also hunters need to learn new tricks as the deer already have.