Women of polygamist retreat speak out

SW85

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From http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080415/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat:

ELDORADO, Texas - Mothers separated from their children as part of a wide-ranging abuse investigation within a polygamist retreat accuse state officials of misleading them before taking their children into custody.
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Authorities raided the sect's ranch more than a week ago in response to allegations that underage girls were forced to marry older men. Women and children from the secretive community were taken to a West Texas fort-turned-museum and a rodeo pavilion, but on Monday officials began separating women and some of their children without warning, members of the sect said.

While some women and children were taken from the shelters to the nearby San Angelo Coliseum, other women were allowed to return to the ranch — but only those who were childless or had children under the age of 5.

About three dozen of the women who returned to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch spoke out Monday, after 11 days in temporary shelters. They said in interviews that police surrounded them Monday and gave them a choice between returning home, or relocating to a women's shelter.

"It just feels like someone is trying to hurt us," said Paula, 38, who like other members of the sect declined to give her full name. "I do not understand how they can do this when they don't have a for sure knowledge that anyone has abused these children."

Marissa Gonzales, a spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said the move was a typical procedure taken by the agency.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.

Brenda, a 37-year-old mother of two teenage boys, said the women were threatened with arrest if they resisted the court order. Previously, the women had been told they would stay with the children at least until Thursday, when a custody hearing is scheduled, she said.

A call to CPS for comment late Monday on the women's claims was not immediately returned.

CPS's closing of the shelters came a day after three mothers from the ranch petitioned Gov. Rick Perry to inspect the shelters to see firsthand how families were being treated. The women said the living conditions were cramped and that some of the children had become sick.

About 20 children were recovering from a mild case of chickenpox, said Dr. Sandra Guerra-Cantu with the state Health Department.

Perry spokesman Robert Black said the governor did not believe the children were being housed in poor conditions at the West Texas fort.

"Let's be honest here, this is not the Ritz," Black said. But he called the accommodations "clean and neat."

CPS said officials have been planning the move for a week but that the coliseum was unavailable earlier. About two dozen teenage boys were moved to a facility outside San Angelo with the judge's permission, CPS said. The location was not released.

The state is accusing the sect of physically and sexually abusing the youngsters and wants to strip their parents of custody and place the children in foster care or put them up for adoption. The sheer size of the case was an obstacle.

"Quite frankly, I'm not sure what we're going to do," Texas District Judge Barbara Walther said after a conference that included three to four dozen attorneys either representing or hoping to represent youngsters.

Brenda and others were critical of CPS, saying the agency misled them as to what was to happen Monday, weren't told why the children were removed from the compound and given inaccurate messages about opportunities to meet attorneys.

"We got to where we said, 'We cannot believe a word you say. We cannot trust you,'" she said.

Officials said the investigation began with a call from a young girl who has yet to be located by CPS. The women in the sect said they suspect she may be a bitter ex-member of the church.

The FLDS practice polygamy in arranged marriages, sometimes between underage girls and older men. The group has thousands of followers in two side-by-side towns in Arizona and Utah.

The church has repeatedly fought because of its lifestyle before. Men, women and children have been swept up in raids that took place in 1935, 1944 and 1953.

"It's been all through history, " said Brenda, the mother of two. "We were just here trying to live a peaceful, happy, sweet life. We don't understand why we can't do this freely."

This is one of those cases where I allow personal prejudice to flow freely. I regard polygamy, as the 1856 GOP platform put it, as one of the "twin relics of barbarism" (the other being slavery) and would stamp it out wherever I could if I had the ability to do so. I don't feel the damndest ounce of sympathy for these freaks; I hope they have their kids taken away forever and that they themselves get tossed in jail.

Likewise for Mormonism, which I view as a creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan, all the more deplorable for the fact that everything written about it has been thoroughly discredited. I'd stamp it out wherever I could, too (although I wouldn't endorse the government doing that). It is, itself, a remnant of the old recalcitrant tribalism of medieval Europe in which every country viewed themselves as God's Chosen.

Every American should burn with shame that these ossified primitives still lurk among them.
 
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vyo476

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This is one of those cases where I allow personal prejudice to flow freely. I regard polygamy, as the 1856 GOP platform put it, as one of the "twin relics of barbarism" (the other being slavery) and would stamp it out wherever I could if I had the ability to do so. I don't feel the damndest ounce of sympathy for these freaks; I hope they have their kids taken away forever and that they themselves get tossed in jail.

What do you have against polygamy?

Likewise for Mormonism, which I view as a creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan, all the more deplorable for the fact that everything written about it has been thoroughly discredited. I'd stamp it out wherever I could, too (although I wouldn't endorse the government doing that). It is, itself, a remnant of the old recalcitrant tribalism of medieval Europe in which every country viewed themselves as God's Chosen.

One of the big things to remember about the Mormons is that the mainstream Latter Day Saints renounced, amongst other things, polygamy more than one hundred years ago. Sure, they're a little odd, but in a country that plays host to both the Church of Scientology and the Westboro Baptist Church I really wouldn't complain about the Mormons.

Fundamentalists are, of course, a different matter, especially if they're hurting children. They can all go to jail see how they like "marrying" a six-foot-eight Hell's Angel named Beefcake for all I care if they're molesting children. But don't point the finger at all Mormons. I've known a few, they're mostly good people.

Every American should burn with shame that these ossified primitives still lurk among them.

Funny, the antisemites say the same thing about the Jews, almost word for word.

I guess I just don't understand (yet) what you have against polygamy - or mainstream Mormons, who don't even practice polygamy.
 

Andy

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I can only speak for myself, so please don't apply his statements to me, or mine to him.

My issue is that from a moral perspective, I believe that God designed the marriage relationship to be specifically one man and one woman. As such I believe that it works best only in that form. This is the idea that in a marriage relationship, each person deserves and should receive the full devotion of the other. In polygamy, neither gets the full devotion from anyone.

From a practical standpoint, no human that I know of can completely and equally split their time, love, attention, affection, between multiple wives. So without question one wife will get the largest portion of the relationship, while the other(s) will receive the scraps.

From a historical standpoint, very little good comes from polygamy. Family strife, half brothers and half sisters fighting over the family attention, each wife demanding their own due, while none receiving it in full. I can not sight many good examples of polygamy.

However, my largest beef with Mormonism has more to due with false belief. I have a huge issue with people who say they believe something, and then don't act like it. Specifically when they say they believe the Bible, and then act completely contrary to it's teaching, I have a problem.

I met a nice CoLS girl a while back, and thought to learn more about her. She was a beauty no doubt. Then I learned alot about her. She was sleeping around (no sex before marriage) and had child with a married man (adultery) had racked up tens of thousands of dollars in debt and refused to pay it (pay back all that you can) and smoked (your body is a temple to God) she was flat broke, but went out on the weekend drinking (just sign of bad character), and she asked me once what I thought about her life style. I happen to mention perhaps it was more important what God thought. She looked at my like I was crazy, which tells me that never crossed her mind.

Now, I oddly still like the girl, but only as a nice friend. Any chance of being anything more died after I learned all this real quick. Point being, what am I supposed to think about the CoLS? How, when they believe these actions are acceptable, yet the Bible so explicitly states it is not? How? Because it's a cult. They do not follow the words of the God they claim to believe in. It's just a cult.

The only reason I dislike them more than scientology, is because when people judge Christians, these cult followers are lumped in with me, which I am against. I have nothing in common with a Moromon, yet they claim to be a Christian, which I am.
 

Libsmasher

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A family services thugocracy disrupts the lives of hundreds of people based on one girl's claims - it's as if Janet Reno were back in power!
 

Jarlaxle

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From http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080415/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat:



This is one of those cases where I allow personal prejudice to flow freely. I regard polygamy, as the 1856 GOP platform put it, as one of the "twin relics of barbarism" (the other being slavery) and would stamp it out wherever I could if I had the ability to do so. I don't feel the damndest ounce of sympathy for these freaks; I hope they have their kids taken away forever and that they themselves get tossed in jail.

Likewise for Mormonism, which I view as a creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan, all the more deplorable for the fact that everything written about it has been thoroughly discredited. I'd stamp it out wherever I could, too (although I wouldn't endorse the government doing that). It is, itself, a remnant of the old recalcitrant tribalism of medieval Europe in which every country viewed themselves as God's Chosen.

Every American should burn with shame that these ossified primitives still lurk among them.

You sound like my father. Which, quite frankly, scares the hell out of me.
 

9sublime

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This is one of those cases where I allow personal prejudice to flow freely. I regard polygamy, as the 1856 GOP platform put it, as one of the "twin relics of barbarism" (the other being slavery) and would stamp it out wherever I could if I had the ability to do so.

Please explain to me how polygamy is on par with slavery.
 

Coyote

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From http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080415/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat:



This is one of those cases where I allow personal prejudice to flow freely. I regard polygamy, as the 1856 GOP platform put it, as one of the "twin relics of barbarism" (the other being slavery) and would stamp it out wherever I could if I had the ability to do so. I don't feel the damndest ounce of sympathy for these freaks; I hope they have their kids taken away forever and that they themselves get tossed in jail.

Likewise for Mormonism, which I view as a creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan, all the more deplorable for the fact that everything written about it has been thoroughly discredited. I'd stamp it out wherever I could, too (although I wouldn't endorse the government doing that). It is, itself, a remnant of the old recalcitrant tribalism of medieval Europe in which every country viewed themselves as God's Chosen.

Every American should burn with shame that these ossified primitives still lurk among them.

All religions - at their fundamentalist levels - can be accurately described as "creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan". The only reason they don't refer to Jesus or Mohammed as charlatans is too many centuries have passed for an accurate history.

I'm indifferent to polygamy - I could care less as long as it's adults. So what exactly is wrong with it?
 

Andy

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All religions - at their fundamentalist levels - can be accurately described as "creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan". The only reason they don't refer to Jesus or Mohammed as charlatans is too many centuries have passed for an accurate history.

I'm indifferent to polygamy - I could care less as long as it's adults. So what exactly is wrong with it?

Am I really that creepy to you?
 

pocketfullofshells

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Funny listing to some argue against it saying God says X or Y....Guess what God told them to do it. But you clearly have the better God I am sure, because you know he is real...they must just be faking it because they cant know there God is Real .

Fact is while I think its screwed up , the idea of even one wife scares me lol, its none of our damn business what as adults they want to do....its only a matter of the stuff that happens with the kids to me.
 

Bunz

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A family services thugocracy disrupts the lives of hundreds of people based on one girl's claims - it's as if Janet Reno were back in power!
You want to bring up Janet Reno about a Texas state matter? :rolleyes:

It is the law they have to investigate. I am not there on the ground to say if they are acting heavy handed or not, but certainly this would be wise to get to the bottom of.
 

Bunz

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Please explain to me how polygamy is on par with slavery.

It is often times where the girls are forced into marraige usually at a very young age with a much older man and are part of a concubine, of which they cannot willingly leave and become property of the "husband"
 

Libsmasher

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You want to bring up Janet Reno about a Texas state matter? :rolleyes:

It is the law they have to investigate. I am not there on the ground to say if they are acting heavy handed or not, but certainly this would be wise to get to the bottom of.

They assault a religious community with dozens of police officers and an armored vehicle, and haul off hundreds of people, because they received one anonymous call. It's amazing what people in this country will tolerate as long as it's against minority christian religious communities. Would anybody complain if, say, someone in a normal small town complained to state police that someone had assaulted him, and the state police came in and arrested everyone in town and carted them off?
 

Bunz

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They assault a religious community with dozens of police officers and an armored vehicle, and haul off hundreds of people, because they received one anonymous call. It's amazing what people in this country will tolerate as long as it's against minority christian religious communities. Would anybody complain if, say, someone in a normal small town complained to state police that someone had assaulted him, and the state police came in and arrested everyone in town and carted them off?

What did you want them to show up with? Do you remember what set off the Waco situation? I wonder what hell would be raised if they showed up light and got shot to pieces.

But your right they did raid a religious compound and with armed people. They got a tip that some abuse was happening. They showed up, and guess what? you have people in violation of the law. Including polygamy, sexual abuse of a minor, we are talking serious felonies here.
Did you not want them to respond to a reported crime?
Do you suggest we leave the children in place to possibly be further victimized or manipulated in terms of trial?
 
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9sublime

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It is often times where the girls are forced into marraige usually at a very young age with a much older man and are part of a concubine, of which they cannot willingly leave and become property of the "husband"

Thats not all polygamy. If lots of adults willingly choose to practice it, who are we to stop them?

Only people who can't get off their own religious high horse call it a sin in that context.

Of coure with little girls who don't have a say and are not mature enough to make the decision anway, it is despicable.
 
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