Yahweh and Allah. Are they moral and ethical Gods?

I think the Jews were on the right path to a decent theology/philosophy before Christianity took over their religion.

A shame as Jews were a lot brighter than Christians and still are. Or so it seems.

Regards
DL
Judging from my own experience, most modern Jews are Deists not Theists. It is mostly just an ethnic group now with close family and traditional ties. Conversion for marriage happens a lot. They like to sing and dance and they like their celebrations.

Your history is really weak if you think the Christians took over the Jews' religion. Instead, the reality is that the Jews forced the early Christians out of Judea and into Antioch and Ephesus. You should read about that.

If you think that the Jews were on the right path, they you need to ask yourself why did they rebel so often against their superior foreign masters? Is that the right path? It got a lot of their people killed. Their rebellion was a disaster against the Babylonians and the Romans. It was nominally successful against the Syrian Greeks is all.

Judaism like any religion is not Philosophy. Philosophy was invented by the ancient Greeks to overcome the undue influence of Religion. The two are complete opposites. Religion is dogmatic and revelatory. Philosophy is pure rational thought applied to life.

If you want to learn about Philosophy the best short book I can think of to recommend to you is Bertrand Russell's "History Of Western Philosophy". It is still in print and you can get it at most mega bookstores or online.

If you want to learn about the early Christian Church you should read Eusebius' "History Of The Church". He was a contemporary with Constantine and is a primary source.
 
Werbung:
Some say the original plan was for all people to be treated the same, but most of the world became pagan. Therefore, God wanted to use one people, the Jews, as a light to the world. Finally, according to Christians, God is now looking at all people more equally, at least as long as they've converted.
Whatever "some say" is going to be a fallacy of argumentum populum.

Here is wiki's list of all the fallacies, in case you have never heard of them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
 
That is not what I hear.

All those I see flying the cross have Jesus as their scapegoat and all think of him as the son of God and a part of the Godhead.

I guess you have been chatting with some sects that I have missed in my travels.

As to the Trinity, it was not adopted by Christianity till Constantine forced the vote to his way with threats of death to those who opposed it. Tyat was about 380 CE.

-------

Here is the TLDR version.


Originally Posted by animefan48

Well, the reality is most Christians do buy into the trinity doctrine because of persecution of the early Gnostics and non-Trinitarians, and the religious councils were dissenters were forced to agree to a Trinitarian theology. Many Unitarian and Universalist theologies argue that when Jesus said he was the way, he meant that he was an example of how to live to be united/reunited with God. As for the name, God does give other names for himself including the Alpha and Omega, as well as some believe a name that should not be written (or even spoken I believe). Honestly, I think using the name I Am That I Am would just be confusing and convoluted, seriously. I seriously do not believe that it is a continuation of Gnostic/mystical/Unitarian suppression. Even the Gnostic and mystical traditions within Islam and Christianity do not tend to use that name, and among the 99 Names of Allah, I did not find that one. Also, many Rastafarians believe that the Holy Spirit lives in humans and will sometimes say I and I instead of we, yet they don't seem to use the name I Am for God/Jah either, so I really don't think it can be related to suppressing mystical and Gnostic interpretations. I think that originally oppressing those ideas and decreeing them heretical are quite enough, the early Church did such a good job that after the split many Protestant groups continued to condemn mystical and later Gnostic sects and theologies.







Yup, the bishops voted and it was settled for all time!!1 (Some say the preliminary votes were 150 something to 140 something in favor of the trinity)

But then Constantine stepped in: After a prolonged and inconclusive debate, the impatient Constantine intervened to force an end to the conflict by demanding the adoption of the creed. The vote was taken under threat of exile for any who did not support the decision favored by Constantine. (And later, they fully endorsed the trinity idea when it all happened again at the council of Constantinople in AD 381, where only Trinitarians were invited to attend. Surprise! They also managed to carry a vote in favor of the Trinity.)


http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd12bbs.tx



Even a Trinitarian scholar admits the Earliest & Original beliefs were NOT Trinitarian!


The trinity formulation is a later corruption away from the earliest & original beliefs!


"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".

Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180


"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".

R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173, 1980


The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306.


"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.


"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).


"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).


Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . .

(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)


Constantine’s Victory Arch says it all.


http://www.simchajtv.com/movie-secrets-of-christianity-selling-christianity/


Regards

DL
Tell me something that I don't know next time.

You are simply re-characterizing my own arguments and twisting them into your own.

I told you the trinity doctrine is a myth concocted at the Council Of Nicaea.
 
Judging from my own experience, most modern Jews are Deists not Theists. It is mostly just an ethnic group now with close family and traditional ties. Conversion for marriage happens a lot. They like to sing and dance and they like their celebrations.

Your history is really weak if you think the Christians took over the Jews' religion. Instead, the reality is that the Jews forced the early Christians out of Judea and into Antioch and Ephesus. You should read about that.

If you think that the Jews were on the right path, they you need to ask yourself why did they rebel so often against their superior foreign masters? Is that the right path? It got a lot of their people killed. Their rebellion was a disaster against the Babylonians and the Romans. It was nominally successful against the Syrian Greeks is all.

Judaism like any religion is not Philosophy. Philosophy was invented by the ancient Greeks to overcome the undue influence of Religion. The two are complete opposites. Religion is dogmatic and revelatory. Philosophy is pure rational thought applied to life.

If you want to learn about Philosophy the best short book I can think of to recommend to you is Bertrand Russell's "History Of Western Philosophy". It is still in print and you can get it at most mega bookstores or online.

If you want to learn about the early Christian Church you should read Eusebius' "History Of The Church". He was a contemporary with Constantine and is a primary source.

The ancient Jews were fighting for independence from Rome and other nations.
I see nothing wrong with that. Neither will you unless you think they should have just kowtowed to what you rightly call their "their superior foreign masters?"

I think we should all rebel against those who would be our masters, which show the Jews as slaves with a master.

As to theology and philosophy, I keep it simple and just see both groups as looking for the best rules and laws to live life by. I do recognize that theists see their Gods as having those best rules and laws but as you can see from secular gains in terms of law, that theology has bested theologies. That is why no theology, save Islam, is trying to get their God's laws as the law of the land.

This is especially good if you consider the homophobia and misogyny that is rampant in theologies.

Regards
DL
 
Tell me something that I don't know next time.

You are simply re-characterizing my own arguments and twisting them into your own.

I told you the trinity doctrine is a myth concocted at the Council Of Nicaea.

You had stated "spring 33 A.D.", as the beginning of the Trinity concept. I just gave the right date.

You are the one doing the twisting.

Regards
DL
 
You had stated "spring 33 A.D.", as the beginning of the Trinity concept. I just gave the right date.

You are the one doing the twisting.

Regards
DL
Sorry, you misunderstood me if that's what you got out of what I said.

The trinity concept was born at the Nicene Council in 325 AD.

The birth of Christian Polytheism occurred in the spring of 33 AD when Jesus rose from the tomb after his resurrection. Now there were 2 Gods not just one -- Jesus himself who was now promoted to immortality -- and God The Father -- his father -- as well. Then a few weeks later when He sent the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) to the apostles This became a 3rd God. Now there were 3 of them, not just 1.

THREE not just one -- The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
 
The ancient Jews were fighting for independence from Rome and other nations.
I see nothing wrong with that. Neither will you unless you think they should have just kowtowed to what you rightly call their "their superior foreign masters?"

I think we should all rebel against those who would be our masters, which show the Jews as slaves with a master.

As to theology and philosophy, I keep it simple and just see both groups as looking for the best rules and laws to live life by. I do recognize that theists see their Gods as having those best rules and laws but as you can see from secular gains in terms of law, that theology has bested theologies. That is why no theology, save Islam, is trying to get their God's laws as the law of the land.

This is especially good if you consider the homophobia and misogyny that is rampant in theologies.

Regards
DL
The Jews should have paid their taxes -- to Nebuchadnezzar and to Caesar -- and not fought against a superior force. They wasted a lot of their own blood fighting.

More relevant philosophically would have been why had they become subservient to the Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans in the first place? Obviously their own God had deserted them for some reason. Query what that reason might have been?
 
Sorry, you misunderstood me if that's what you got out of what I said.

The trinity concept was born at the Nicene Council in 325 AD.

The birth of Christian Polytheism occurred in the spring of 33 AD when Jesus rose from the tomb after his resurrection. Now there were 2 Gods not just one -- Jesus himself who was now promoted to immortality -- and God The Father -- his father -- as well. Then a few weeks later when He sent the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) to the apostles This became a 3rd God. Now there were 3 of them, not just 1.

THREE not just one -- The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

You can try take the Trinity as a monotheistic God out of Christianity but Christians will not buy it.

I guess many who think Christianity is monotheistic have it wrong. Even the so called experts.


Regards
DL
 
The Jews should have paid their taxes -- to Nebuchadnezzar and to Caesar -- and not fought against a superior force. They wasted a lot of their own blood fighting.

More relevant philosophically would have been why had they become subservient to the Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans in the first place? Obviously their own God had deserted them for some reason. Query what that reason might have been?

God and politics were not really separate in those days.

I prefer to query why you think Jews, who wanted to be their own masters, should have just kowtowed to any invading force.

Should the U.S. just lay down before those who would come against it?

Regards
DL
 
God and politics were not really separate in those days.

I prefer to query why you think Jews, who wanted to be their own masters, should have just kowtowed to any invading force.

Should the U.S. just lay down before those who would come against it?

Regards
DL
The USA is the most powerful nation on the Earth and has no reason to bow to anyone.

Not sure how you got so far off topic.

I am guessing you do not know the secular history of the Jews regarding their conquest by the Babylonians, the Greeks, and the Romans.

People should know when they are conquered.
 
The USA is the most powerful nation on the Earth and has no reason to bow to anyone.

Not sure how you got so far off topic.

I am guessing you do not know the secular history of the Jews regarding their conquest by the Babylonians, the Greeks, and the Romans.

People should know when they are conquered.

And slaves should not rebel. Got ya.

I do not agree.

Regards
DL
 
And slaves should not rebel. Got ya.

I do not agree.

Regards
DL
Kings and presidents have a responsibility to keep their people alive.

Useless rebellions like those of Kings Jehoiakim and Zedekiah killed a lot of Jews for nothing.

People should know when they are conquered.

Do you know of any slaves who have successfully rebelled in history? Ever?
 
Last edited:
Kings and presidents have a responsibility to keep their people alive.

Useless rebellions like those of Kings Jehoiakim and Zedekiah killed a lot of Jews for nothing.

People should know when they are conquered.

Do you know of any slaves who have successfully rebelled in history? Ever?

Ever hear of the underground railway?

It was used by many rebellious slaves.

Regards
DL
 
Werbung:
Back
Top