Johnson VINDICATED!!!!!!!!

[Mr. Shaman]

Gee.....another "conservative" Fairy Tale deep-sixed.​

"Sharp insisted, however, that the commander on the scene was saying “the situation’s in doubt” and suggested that McNamara “hold this execute” – meaning the strike order to CINCPAC and Seventh Fleet — “until we have a definite indication that this happened….” Sharp said he believed he could get a “definite indication” that the event had occurred within two hours.

But McNamara rejected Sharp’s proposal to wait for confirmation of the attack. Instead he said, “t seems to me we ought to go ahead on that basis: get the pilots briefed, get the planes armed, get everything lined up to go. Continue the execute order in effect, but between now and 6 o’clock get a definite fix and you call me directly.”

McNamara didn’t claim that he had authority from Johnson to make that decision.

After the conversation with Sharp, McNamara didn’t call LBJ to report on what Sharp had told him or what they had agreed on, according to White House phone logs. Instead he went ahead on his own to issue the execute order at 4:49 pm.

The record of phone McNamara-Johnson conversations on the afternoon of Aug. 4, 1964 thus shows a President who was blissfully unaware that the original reports of an attack were now in doubt and that the Commander-in-Chief of Pacific forces was still seeking to obtain confirmation of the attack.

Ultimately, National Security Council documents declassified in 2005 (PDF) would reveal that no attack on US warships had taken place.

It “is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night,” they said. “In truth, Hanoi’s navy was engaged in nothing that night but the salvage of two of the boats damaged on August 2.”

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Gee.....another "conservative" Fairy Tale deep-sixed.
​

"Sharp insisted, however, that the commander on the scene was saying “the situation’s in doubt” and suggested that McNamara “hold this execute” – meaning the strike order to CINCPAC and Seventh Fleet — “until we have a definite indication that this happened….” Sharp said he believed he could get a “definite indication” that the event had occurred within two hours.

But McNamara rejected Sharp’s proposal to wait for confirmation of the attack. Instead he said, “t seems to me we ought to go ahead on that basis: get the pilots briefed, get the planes armed, get everything lined up to go. Continue the execute order in effect, but between now and 6 o’clock get a definite fix and you call me directly.”

McNamara didn’t claim that he had authority from Johnson to make that decision.

After the conversation with Sharp, McNamara didn’t call LBJ to report on what Sharp had told him or what they had agreed on, according to White House phone logs. Instead he went ahead on his own to issue the execute order at 4:49 pm.

The record of phone McNamara-Johnson conversations on the afternoon of Aug. 4, 1964 thus shows a President who was blissfully unaware that the original reports of an attack were now in doubt and that the Commander-in-Chief of Pacific forces was still seeking to obtain confirmation of the attack.

Ultimately, National Security Council documents declassified in 2005 (PDF) would reveal that no attack on US warships had taken place.

It “is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night,” they said. “In truth, Hanoi’s navy was engaged in nothing that night but the salvage of two of the boats damaged on August 2.” ​

​

As with many of the other members of that political Vietnam era, there will be more continual disclosures such as this floating to the surface, after 25 plus years of being suppressed/classified.

Makes my sentiments/reaffirmation about: "Loving My Country but Fearing My Elected Officials" all that more reasonable!
Justification for involving America in a war...lies/fabrication of documents/hypothetical hysteria...G.W.B. had to have learned those skills from someone...he didn't have the ability to come up them on his own...but he was a genius at 'copying/mimicking/pretending' that he was the 'MASTER MIND'!!!

 

[samsara15]

The mere idea of a few gunboats being aggressive enough to attack two destroyers always seemed like sheer madness to me, and I had actually been on the scene, on another destroyer, a few weeks earlier, before we were relieved by the USS Maddox and the Turner Joy.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

[/LEFT]
As with many of the other members of that political Vietnam era, there will be more continual disclosures such as this floating to the surface, after 25 plus years of being suppressed/classified.

This is the one that's always pissed-me-off....​

"Prior to the U.S. air strikes, top officials in Washington had reason to doubt that any Aug. 4 attack by North Vietnam had occurred. Cables from the U.S. task force commander in the Tonkin Gulf, Captain John J. Herrick, referred to "freak weather effects," "almost total darkness" and an "overeager sonarman" who "was hearing ship's own propeller beat."

One of the Navy pilots flying overhead that night was squadron commander James Stockdale, who gained fame later as a POW and then Ross Perot's vice presidential candidate. "I had the best seat in the house to watch that event," recalled Stockdale a few years ago, "and our destroyers were just shooting at phantom targets — there were no PT boats there.... There was nothing there but black water and American fire power."

Justification for involving America in a war...lies/fabrication of documents/hypothetical hysteria...G.W.B. had to have learned those skills from someone...he didn't have the ability to come up them on his own...but he was a genius at 'copying/mimicking/pretending' that he was the 'MASTER MIND'!!!

I always figured he was "bred" for The Presidency....by his Father & everyone else who enhanced his credibility as a manager (and, would profit FROM his Presidency).....those same folks Eisenhower TRIED to warn everyone about:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

Hell....George Bush never had to learn anything. He merely needed to do what he was told....and, it payed him well to do so....as is evidenced by his perpetual-smirk.​

 

[Bob the Builder]

Sometimes the "Hate America First" crowd make it entirely too easy with their lack of even basic research!

Photo #: NH 97897
(LINK)
Gulf of Tonkin Incident, August 1964

Lieutenant Commander Dempster M. Jackson, USN, Executive officer of USS Maddox (DD-731), kneels next to the hole made by the machine gun bullet that hit his ship's Mk.56 director pedestal during the engagement between Maddox and three North Vietnamese motor torpedo boats on 2 August 1964. The bullet is lodged in the hole.
Taken by a USS Ticonderoga (CVA-14) photographer on 10 August 1964.

Official U.S. Navy Photograph, from the collections of the Naval Historical Center.

Now either 3 N. Vietnamese Motor Torpedo Boats did in fact attack the USS Maddox, or is it your contention that she shot herself?

As for the USS Turner Joy, it has been public knowledge for years that the "attack" on her was the result of an "green", tired, and overanxious young radarman mistaking seastate conditions for enemy vessels. Given that the Maddox had been attacked in the same area only 2 days before, his mistake is somewhat understandable.

 

[Bob the Builder]

The mere idea of a few gunboats being aggressive enough to attack two destroyers always seemed like sheer madness to me, and I had actually been on the scene, on another destroyer, a few weeks earlier, before we were relieved by the USS Maddox and the Turner Joy.

It may seem to be "madness" samsara, but if you'll recall it was the "opening shot" of the paradigm shift in N. Vietnamese strategy towards dealing with our assistance for the S. Vietnamese government. In the previous 6 years they had essentially gone out of their way to not engage US forces directly which is why our losses were so light, however once the decision was made that defeating the S. Vietnamese would require engaging US forces directly the attack on our destroyers was as good a place as any for them to start.

It was classic Sun Tsu, attack with a small force, in an area where they least expect it in order to tie up vast enemy resources. Their risk was low and our response predictable. At the most they stood to lose a few torpedo boats, and we would expand the size of our fleet, tying up manpower and resources.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Sometimes the "Hate America First" crowd make it entirely too easy with their lack of even basic research!

Photo #: NH 97897
(LINK)
Gulf of Tonkin Incident, August 1964

Now either 3 N. Vietnamese Motor Torpedo Boats did in fact attack the USS Maddox, or is it your contention that she shot herself?

As for the USS Turner Joy, it has been public knowledge for years that the "attack" on her was the result of an "green", tired, and overanxious young radarman mistaking seastate conditions for enemy vessels. Given that the Maddox had been attacked in the same area only 2 days before, his mistake is somewhat understandable.

You SAID: "Sometimes the "Hate America First" crowd make it entirely too easy with their lack of even basic research!"

Hmmm, isn't that exactly what you do with all of your OBAMA BASHING???

And not to make light of your wonderful photo...but I'm under the long hard fought lessons of life; that photos are often doctored up to show the exact information that the 'WAR EFFORT BACKERS' want us to believe/swallow...we learned a lot of 'Factual Information' could/would be filtered to sell the Vietnam War to us and GOLLY GEE they did it again for the Iraq invasion!!! War profiteers are very effective at creating the 'hysteria' that gets us emotionally involved, they sell us the 'FEAR' and it's all about 'smoke & mirrors'!

 

[Bob the Builder]

You SAID: "Sometimes the "Hate America First" crowd make it entirely too easy with their lack of even basic research!"

Hmmm, isn't that exactly what you do with all of your OBAMA BASHING???

Nope, because when I bash Obliviot and his policies, I've got the research to BACK IT UP!

And not to make light of your wonderful photo...but I'm under the long hard fought lessons of life; that photos are often doctored up to show the exact information that the 'WAR EFFORT BACKERS' want us to believe/swallow...we learned a lot of 'Factual Information' could/would be filtered to sell the Vietnam War to us and GOLLY GEE they did it again for the Iraq invasion!!! War profiteers are very effective at creating the 'hysteria' that gets us emotionally involved, they sell us the 'FEAR' and it's all about 'smoke & mirrors'!

I knew that one of you would bring that up, which is why I specifically provided a LINK to the site that the photo is presented on, and if you'll look very carefully it includes the photo number so that you can request a copy of it directly from the national archives.

Of course there are some that are so rampantly in denial that they've joined the Tin-Foil-Hat Brigade and ANY information that is presented is automatically accused of being "doctored". The Tonkin Gulf incident was well documented at the time, and the information has been available to anyone with the interest and the intelligence to look for it for more than 40 years.

 

[Andy]

You SAID: "Sometimes the "Hate America First" crowd make it entirely too easy with their lack of even basic research!"

Hmmm, isn't that exactly what you do with all of your OBAMA BASHING??? [/COLOR]

I'm of the opinion that Obama stands for things opposed to America. Thus bashing him is the highest example of being for America.

That said... isn't it amazing how when a Democrat like LBJ acts on the information given, supposedly ignorant the reports were in question, that is not his fault.

But if GWB acts on the information given, unaware that some were questionable, then he's an idiot and obviously lying, either twisting the truth or incompetent.

Want to know why the left has these contradictory views? Because they are all bigoted hypocritical idiots. Every last one of them. Immoral scum bags, and you should expect nothing better from any of them.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Nope, because when I bash Obliviot and his policies, I've got the research to BACK IT UP!

I knew that one of you would bring that up, which is why I specifically provided a LINK to the site that the photo is presented on, and if you'll look very carefully it includes the photo number so that you can request a copy of it directly from the national archives.

Of course there are some that are so rampantly in denial that they've joined the Tin-Foil-Hat Brigade and ANY information that is presented is automatically accused of being "doctored". The Tonkin Gulf incident was well documented at the time, and the information has been available to anyone with the interest and the intelligence to look for it for more than 40 years.

Call me what you will {Tin Foil Hat was pretty original } but there has been and will always be the ability to falsify/generate/retouch a photo/set up a scene/cover-up/and create a scenario that has gotten us involved in a war!!! Our very own CIA/FBI, military seems to be well versed in this...so you think that my questioning this photo as a prop has no merit because it has an archive number??? COME ON???

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I'm of the opinion that Obama stands for things opposed to America. Thus bashing him is the highest example of being for America.

No huge surprise from this poster about with whom you want to fail...Jeez Louise...I voted for G.W.B. and didn't go after that 'NUT JOB' until I learned how he could reinvent details to get the USA involved in a 'non UN sanctioned' war, and then I opened my eyes and ears and learned things!!!

That said... isn't it amazing how when a Democrat like LBJ acts on the information given, supposedly ignorant the reports were in question, that is not his fault.

You'll read into this discussion whatever you want too...that is what you do. For McNamara to come forward and 'OWN UP' to his part in this debacle was impressive...and the side of the isle doesn't matter to me!

But if GWB acts on the information given, unaware that some were questionable, then he's an idiot and obviously lying, either twisting the truth or incompetent.

Well, said...except for the part about the 'UNAWARE'...LOL

Want to know why the left has these contradictory views? Because they are all bigoted hypocritical idiots. Every last one of them. Immoral scum bags, and you should expect nothing better from any of them.

Watch it 'ANDY' or the new forum monitor will be rushing in here to admonish you and your vitriolic posts...she watches everything that I post...she's my troll!!!

But thanks for being soooo open minded and expressing your opinion as well as the 'right winged nut jobs' are able to do!!! As a registered Independent...I fully understand why the 'right winged nut jobs' were able to avoid turning out for this past election FEAR ...LOL

 

[Bob the Builder]

i'm of the opinion that obama stands for things opposed to america. Thus bashing him is the highest example of being for america.

That said... Isn't it amazing how when a democrat like lbj acts on the information given, supposedly ignorant the reports were in question, that is not his fault.

But if gwb acts on the information given, unaware that some were questionable, then he's an idiot and obviously lying, either twisting the truth or incompetent.

Want to know why the left has these contradictory views? Because they are all bigoted hypocritical idiots. Every last one of them. Immoral scum bags, and you should expect nothing better from any of them.

AMEN!!!!
Well said, and TRUE!

 

[Bob the Builder]

Call me what you will {Tin Foil Hat was pretty original } but there has been and will always be the ability to falsify/generate/retouch a photo/set up a scene/cover-up/and create a scenario that has gotten us involved in a war!!! Our very own CIA/FBI, military seems to be well versed in this...so you think that my questioning this photo as a prop has no merit because it has an archive number??? COME ON???

You might want to go back and re-read what I said. I never accused you of being a member of the Tin-Foil-Hat Brigade, I said that there are some on your side of the aisle who ARE.

As for your assertion about falsifying photographs, you have to remember that Photoshop hadn't been invented in 1964, and faking pictures back then was haphazard at best, and almost any kid today can spot 'em a mile away. Just look at the "special effects" in the original Star Wars. George Lucas had the BEST technology in the world (for the time) but there was no way that anyone couldn't see the "frame lapping" used throughout the movie, and that was more than a decade AFTER the Gulf of Tonkin.

Now, the National Archives will send you a copy of the photograph, but since you've apparantly developed into a full blown CT freak, why don't you just go to DC and look at the original and let us know if you still think it's "faked".

 

[Andy]

No huge surprise from this poster about with whom you want to fail...Jeez Louise...I voted for G.W.B. and didn't go after that 'NUT JOB' until I learned how he could reinvent details to get the USA involved in a 'non UN sanctioned' war, and then I opened my eyes and ears and learned things!!!

I no longer "want" Obama to fail. He *IS* a failure.

Well, said...except for the part about the 'UNAWARE'...LOL

Funny how many different leaders from around the world, as well as intelligence agencies, were also "UNAWARE". If Bush was aware, and everyone else on the planet, including all of congress, was not aware, then clearly Bush is by far the most intelligent and brilliant manipulator the world has ever seen.

Watch it 'ANDY' or the new forum monitor will be rushing in here to admonish you and your vitriolic posts...she watches everything that I post...she's my troll!!!

Why would I care? If my posts which state the facts about the left, is unwanted, then being banned would serve my own interest as well as theirs. We are here to discuss truth. Every word I used to describe the actions and motivations of the left, was clear cut truth. If we are here to discuss lies, save us both the trouble and ban me.

As a registered Independent...I fully understand why the 'right winged nut jobs' were able to avoid turning out for this past election FEAR ...LOL

No, it wasn't fear. It was because we had two democrats running for office. People tend to not vote, when either candidate would harm America. McCain was a democrat with a republican name badge. There was no true conservative running for office.

Even now, I have no fear of Obama. If he screws up America enough, I'll simply go to another country.

 

[Bob the Builder]

Even now, I have no fear of Obama. If he screws up America enough, I'll simply go to another country.

I'm sorry to read this Andy. I generally agree with what I've read of yours, but in this case we're polar opposites. It doesn't matter how bad Obliviot messes up, I'm going to stay and fight for my country and Constitution, because that's what I've sworn, before God Almighty to do.

As for the constant charges of "fear", she's projecting her own fear because she's never figured out that fear and faith cannot exist in the same body.