Liberty and justice for all

[PLC1]

"I pledge [or affirm] allegiance to the Flag [symbolic of the nation and state] of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God [insert your own favorite if need be], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Where do you stand?

Absolutely. I have no problem affirming allegiance to that symbol of freedom, which is, in effect, pledging to do whatever it takes to keep that freedom.

As citizens of a free country, we have an obligation to know what our government is doing, and to protest it when it is doing wrong. The government is not the nation, nor would I ever pledge allegiance to any particular government. It works for me, after all, not the other way around. Pledging allegiance to the flag is, IMO, the same as pledging to the Constitution and more especially, to uphold the Bill of Rights.

God bless America, along with her right to protest and her separation of church and state.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I get your point, but you have to realize that we live in a Democratic Republic the majority gets to write the rules. I didn't agree with Vietnam, but I still pledged my allegiance to the Untied States. I don't believe in Social Security or our current Immigration law, but I still will pledge my allegiance.

I think the point is that it isn't about the words. It is about the feeling you get when you look at the flag and its representation of life, liberty and the pursued of happiness. The leaders will be good and bad. They will come and go. The symbol of freedom and capitalism will always be here if we can stay committed to it.

it does not say anything about Vietnam in the pledge...and thus my point, the saying the pledge itself, is stating a lie to anyone who does not belive in God...so the pledge as stands would be worthless.

When I see a American Flag, i see 2 things...the great ideas, hopes and promise of equality and Justice and human rights felt as the ideas of America at its start....and the injustices and blindness our nation has often taken with those same ideas.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I would have thought that the title of this thread would have indicated that the focus was on the liberty and justice part and not about the God part of the pledge.

I would have further thought that adding "[insert your own favorite here]" would have made it more clear that the thread is not about the concept of God in the pledge. If your favorite is not god at all then insert that. You will not be lying in this thread because God is not necessarily a part of that pledge.

did you expect someone to say they where against liberty or justice then? and the pledge with the phrase...under maybe a god or many gods or maybe no gods, hell if I know...sounds a bit odd dont you think?

 

[chestnut]

Hey. Let's just pledge to Obama. Or even the Earth!


Forget about our country.

 

[Dr.Who]

it does not say anything about Vietnam in the pledge...and thus my point, the saying the pledge itself, is stating a lie to anyone who does not belive in God...so the pledge as stands would be worthless.

When I see a American Flag, i see 2 things...the great ideas, hopes and promise of equality and Justice and human rights felt as the ideas of America at its start....and the injustices and blindness our nation has often taken with those same ideas.

That scares me.

Right there in the pledge it says that the flag stands for the republic. Not the politicians who may have done wrong, not the citizenry who may have done wrong, and not the nation.

The republic is a system of government that has representative democracy. Do you have a problem with a system of government that is responsive to the people by having elected representatives who are responsible for carrying out liberty and justice?

That is what I am trying to find out. Do you value liberty and justice as strongly as the founders of our republic or do you value social democracy, or redistribution of wealth more? The founders were intentional in not including values of social democracy in the constitution. They valued liberty and justice and intentionally left out economic fairness for the simple reason that economic redistribution cannot exist with liberty and democracy - they are ideals at odds with each other. To advance social democracy one must limit liberty. To advance liberty one must limit social democracy.

So which do you weigh more: liberty and justice or social democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

 

[Dr.Who]

did you expect someone to say they where against liberty or justice then? and the pledge with the phrase...under maybe a god or many gods or maybe no gods, hell if I know...sounds a bit odd dont you think?

I expected some people to say that they thought there were things more important than liberty and justice. Dahermit volunteered first. I expect you to agree with him. Do you not think that economic "fairness" is a higher value than liberty and justice?

I wanted the pledge to be interpreted as broadly as possible in this thread and not to alienate Christians who would not take a pledge, atheists who would not believe it to be under God or those who would see the flag as just cloth (which is why it clarified that it was symbolic of liberty and justice.

Somehow you failed to be accommodated despite herculean efforts.

If, for the purposes of this thread the pledge was written in such a way so that "under God" were not an issue for you, how would you respond to the pledge?

 

[dahermit]

Yes well that explains a lot.

Yes, it explains that you do not know what Maslow's Hierarchy of needs are, and that he stated that one cannot move up that Hierarchy until the lowest need is met. You did say that you were a psychologist did you not? But, never heard of Maslow? My, My.

It is views like that which will destroy our country. Not only is it in error but it is a despicable line of thought.

The love it or leave it, my country right or wrong, caused the U.S. over 50,000 lives and the Vietnamese millions of lives. Likewise, pledging allegiance without questioning allowed the Nazis into power prior to WWII.

The rest of us need to recognize who the enemy is and work hard to destroy his selfish notions in the free market of ideas.

Selfish?!! "...free market of ideas..."??!! Coming from a Conservative? Have you no shame??

Anyone who has served in the military should see that he has just discounted what you have risked your life for. Anyone who has made a sacrifice to ensure any freedom at all should know that Dahermit is working against you. Do you value civil rights? Any of them? Then Dahermit is working against your cause. He was not just asked how he felt about his own liberty but he was asked how he felt about liberty and justice FOR ALL. And he clearly valued his own immediate needs more than YOUR liberty and justice.

You are so full of it. The pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the military or service in it. It is a foolish, meaningless civilian ceremony. I have served in the military, all three of my brothers also have served. The pledge of allegiance is not used in the military, this is: I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Now, wherein does it mention "flag"?

If more people thought like you [Dahermit] this country would not even exist. Without freedom you will lose the rest.

"Freedom" to exploit the working class. But no "Freedom" to join a union? And with more people like you, our country would still be torturing suspected terrorists in Afghanistan, and Iraq. Watch the documentary "Taxi to nowhere" and see who are the enemies of the American way.

Do you value civil rights? Any of them?

Yes, all the civil rights as listed in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights therein. Including the Second Amendment...someday the working class may need firearms to deal with the "let them eat cake" wealthy as they did during the French Revolution.

Oh, and by the way Dr. Who, you seem to have become somewhat hysterical. Perhaps you should seek a good psychologist for therapy.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I expected some people to say that they thought there were things more important than liberty and justice. Dahermit volunteered first. I expect you to agree with him. Do you not think that economic "fairness" is a higher value than liberty and justice?

I wanted the pledge to be interpreted as broadly as possible in this thread and not to alienate Christians who would not take a pledge, atheists who would not believe it to be under God or those who would see the flag as just cloth (which is why it clarified that it was symbolic of liberty and justice.

Somehow you failed to be accommodated despite herculean efforts.

If, for the purposes of this thread the pledge was written in such a way so that "under God" were not an issue for you, how would you respond to the pledge?

I dont think Economic fairness is greater no, not even close. Liberty is the means that makes anything worth while.I could have a economic system that was very fair and even...but if it has no freedom then whats the point? none. At the same time if you are completely free in econ system that is purly onfair...it in facts limits you real freedom...so I would say its a important part of Liberty, but not a greater part no.

and as for Justice, without justice there can be no good econ system.If courts dont hold to the laws, then businesses do not, and thus peoples belief in any kind of econ system that can be fair is gone. The problem I see with some of todays problem stems from a lack of justice in our econ system. Big companies are not held to account for there actions, and hold legal status as basically super citizens...this has lead to the accounting scandals, banks failing and such.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I expected some people to say that they thought there were things more important than liberty and justice. Dahermit volunteered first. I expect you to agree with him. Do you not think that economic "fairness" is a higher value than liberty and justice?

I wanted the pledge to be interpreted as broadly as possible in this thread and not to alienate Christians who would not take a pledge, atheists who would not believe it to be under God or those who would see the flag as just cloth (which is why it clarified that it was symbolic of liberty and justice.

Somehow you failed to be accommodated despite herculean efforts.

as for that part, I just saw what it was, know what it normaly says, glanced saw that you did include the under god part but did not read next line...figuring it was just the rest of the standard pledge when I responded last time

 

[dahermit]

So how much do you value and support liberty and justice for all?

I must revisit this. The question is so ambiguous as to be stupid. How could anyone quantify such a vague statement.

Also, for what it is worth, no everyone views the flag as a symbol for liberty and justice. Some see it as a symbol for our country, some see it as a symbol for the government. It is, at best, ambiguous.

 

[dahermit]

I expected some people to say that they thought there were things more important than liberty and justice. Dahermit volunteered first. I expect you to agree with him. Do you not think that economic "fairness" is a higher value than liberty and justice?

I wanted the pledge to be interpreted as broadly as possible in this thread and not to alienate Christians who would not take a pledge, atheists who would not believe it to be under God or those who would see the flag as just cloth (which is why it clarified that it was symbolic of liberty and justice.

Somehow you failed to be accommodated despite herculean efforts.
If, for the purposes of this thread the pledge was written in such a way so that "under God" were not an issue for you, how would you respond to the pledge?

You have the tendency to give yourself way too much credit.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

As much as I hated McCarthy's tactics, he was right. If he had only done his homework instead of guessing, he would have uncovered real treason and spying going on right within the beltway and at government contractors.

Yeah....those alcohol-fired delusions make anything possible.

​

The flag is a simple single representation of freedom, liberty, and capitalism. It is recognized world wide. Our young people need to have something to believe in. I like the idea of them looking at the flag with pride and respect because it is an ideal.

.....And, pledging allegiance is the least anyone can do....making it the preference of "conservatives", nation-WIDE!!

MUCH like loading-up your vehicle with "patriotic"-magnets, there's no (actual) WORK required.....no (actual) SACRIFICE, of any kind, required....and, everyone gets to see you DO IT!!!

Yeah....that's what made this Country great....a bunch o' "sunshine"-patriots, puttin'-on the "pledge"-show....and, avoiding as many taxes as is humanly-possible.

​

 

[dahermit]

" ...those who would see the flag as just cloth (which is why it clarified that it was symbolic of liberty and justice.
Somehow you failed to be accommodated despite herculean efforts."

No, your original post stated that the flag was a symbol for "nation and state".

I pledge [or affirm] allegiance to the Flag [symbolic of the nation and state]

Now you say that it is symbolic of liberty and justice...which is it? You seemed to have confused yourself.

 

[TheFranklinParty]

Yeah....those alcohol-fired delusions make anything possible.​

​

.....And, pledging allegiance is the least anyone can do....making it the preference of "conservatives", nation-WIDE!!​

MUCH like loading-up your vehicle with "patriotic"-magnets, there's no (actual) WORK required.....no (actual) SACRIFICE, of any kind, required....and, everyone gets to see you DO IT!!!​

Yeah....that's what made this Country great....a bunch o' "sunshine"-patriots, puttin'-on the "pledge"-show....and, avoiding as many taxes as is humanly-possible.​

​

Don't confuse the poor implementation with the reality that there were spy's and they placed this country at risk. If a more stable group of individuals had run that investigation it would have provided a tremendous amount of homeland security instead of the witch hunt it turned out to be.

I'm a big believer in walking the talk. You are right, someone who just throws flags and magnets on their car without fighting, defending, and voting for our freedom is nothing more than a poser.

The problem I have with your statements is that you and others use mass generalizations to group people together, so you can provide fuel for your "poor me" persecution rhetoric. In my opinion, it is nothing more than a form of bigotry which is embarrassing and shameful. If you want to be a bigot it is a free country, but IMHO it would suit you better to make your points without it.

 

[TheFranklinParty]

No, your original post stated that the flag was a symbol for "nation and state".

Now you say that it is symbolic of liberty and justice...which is it? You seemed to have confused yourself.

Get over yourself...stop being so petty and answer the question. You either love the idea of this country or you don't...plain and simple, that is the question at hand? Well, do you? If so, then we are on common ground and we can figure out our differences. If not, then there is plenty of real estate on this planet.