Progressives: The Anti-Liberals

[Andy]

They forced a monument to come down because it displayed the same Ten Commandments that are on government buildings in Washington DC too.

They have been right there in the thick of things trying to keep kids from praying even when it’s their own choice, stopped praying or any mention of God in speeches by graduates.

And all under the mythical separation of church and state!

They want freedom FROM religion not freedom OF religion

They are like a cancer

Unless you’re Muslim that is

In which case you can cut off your wifes head in a TV station to promote the peacefulness of Islam. America is getting more sick by the week.

 

[Little-Acorn]

And all under the mythical separation of church and state!

There never has been the wording "separation of church and state" in any law in the US as far as I know, stretching all the way back to the Declaration of Independence.

I believe Thomas Jefferson used the phrase in a private letter to a friend. But when he did it, he wasn't recommending that government be kept free of the "taint" of religion. He was urging that religion be kept free of the taint of government!

To no one's surprise, the ACLU and other such big-government fanatics have completely warped the original meaning of the phrase, and done their best to pretend their version is some kind of law when it isn't.

 

[samsara15]

The key being "as they define it". When the ACLU prevents people from practicing their faith within the frame work of the law, because of a non-existent separation of church and state, the they are redefining liberty.

Conservative uphold the constitution and the values the country was built on. An unchanging view that ultimately all liberty and life, are given from our creator. Not by some infinitely changeable abstract notion of liberty.

Then you have your own personal definition of liberty, and I have mine, and never the twain shall meet?

 

[PLC1]

They forced a monument to come down because it displayed the same Ten Commandments that are on government buildings in Washington DC too.

Dang, they're anti semitic, too? Was it really the ACLU that made them take down the ten commandments?

They have been right there in the thick of things trying to keep kids from praying even when it’s their own choice, stopped praying or any mention of God in speeches by graduates.

No one can keep kids from praying, nor does anyone want to. They might want to keep authorities from imposing a particular mandatory prayer on children at school, however.

And all under the mythical separation of church and state!

They want freedom FROM religion not freedom OF religion

They are like a cancer

Freedom of religion has to be freedom from religion if the individual doesn't want to practice religion, what authoritarian power should be able to force them to?

Unless you’re Muslim that is

No, I really think the ACLU would oppose some of the practices of Muslims, too, should they try to impose them here in the US. I doubt they would support a government run by the Imams, for example, or making a woman wear a burka.

 

[samsara15]

You have a bias opinion in your thinking that the ACLU is not bias. Logic and facts say otherwise.

I don’t know what liberality is so I can’t hate it but I do hate liberalism, its what is killing our Country that I love so much.

It’s impossible to argue with you that the ACLU is not bias when all the proof even from the ACLU themselves says other wise, its like arguing with shaman.

You started this ACLU argument by asking if we give $$ to them. Not only did people reply no they explained why they did not but that was not good enough for you and that is a personal problem you will have to work out on your own.

The ACLU is bias and only defends things within their political agenda, why would someone who is politically against them give them money...they wouldn’t.!!

Apparently making even some small efffort towards neutrality is beyond your capacity.

From my own POV, it is Conservativism that is killing the nation.

Is it within your capacity to unwrap yourself from your own POV, just for a little while, to see how the other half of the nation thinks?

 

[Pandora]

Apparently making even some small efffort towards neutrality is beyond your capacity.

From my own POV, it is Conservativism that is killing the nation.

Is it within your capacity to unwrap yourself from your own POV, just for a little while, to see how the other half of the nation thinks?

You seem intent on getting me to say the ACLU is not bias, but if I say that then I am a liar. There is nothing wrong with them being bias; it’s their right to defend the freedoms they define as important. It would be against freedom to force them to defend freedoms that either doesn’t matter to them or they are against.

You want me to make "some small effort towards neutrality”?

Why not just say what is true and call it good? They defend Liberal and progressive rights that are important to them, that is also who funds them.

Again, there is nothing wrong with what they do; it’s their right as Americans. Why is that not good enough for you to just be honest about what they are and who they serve?

 

[Pandora]

Dang, they're anti semitic, too? Was it really the ACLU that made them take down the ten commandments?

The ACLU went to court against Judge Roy Moore to have the Ten Commandments monument removed from the property. I think it was 2003.

No one can keep kids from praying, nor does anyone want to. They might want to keep authorities from imposing a particular mandatory prayer on children at school, however.

Actually there is a current story of a student who prayed for a sick teacher and another teacher who had “issues” with prayer had the girl kicked out of school with the help of the ACLU. The girl has been reinstated NOT DUE TO THE ACLU

Also,

There are far too many examples of the ACLU fighing AGAINST people being able to pray on school grounds or at school events not on school grounds. So Ill just post the google link

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+ACLU+represents+schools+agaisnt+prayer+in+school

Freedom of religion has to be freedom from religion if the individual doesn't want to practice religion, what authoritarian power should be able to force them to?

There are no cases that I know of where someone is forced to be religious, if you find a case where some school or government entity is forcing a person to be religious I am with you it must be squashed. Though I do know of cases where children are FORCED to learn the pillars of Islam and have to pretend to pray as is done in Islam or they don’t pass the class.

ACLU didn’t have a problem with that, probably because they are hypocrites.

No, I really think the ACLU would oppose some of the practices of Muslims, too, should they try to impose them here in the US. I doubt they would support a government run by the Imams, for example, or making a woman wear a burka.

They probably would oppose the burka but they did not do anything when schools made “special” praying areas for Muslims only, they did nothing when kids were forced to learn the pillars of Islam or made to posture as though they were praying

 

[Pandora]

There never has been the wording "separation of church and state" in any law in the US as far as I know, stretching all the way back to the Declaration of Independence.

I believe Thomas Jefferson used the phrase in a private letter to a friend. But when he did it, he wasn't recommending that government be kept free of the "taint" of religion. He was urging that religion be kept free of the taint of government!

To no one's surprise, the ACLU and other such big-government fanatics have completely warped the original meaning of the phrase, and done their best to pretend their version is some kind of law when it isn't.

Jefferson was replying to a letter from the Danbury Baptist Church. The point of the reply was to assure the church that there was a wall of separation that the government or state will not have power over the church and force them to do things they were against.

Of course that is now warped and twisted to mean the total opposite of what Jefferson’s intent was.

 

[BigRob]

Jefferson was replying to a letter from the Danbury Baptist Church. The point of the reply was to assure the church that there was a wall of separation that the government or state will not have power over the church and force them to do things they were against.

Of course that is now warped and twisted to mean the total opposite of what Jefferson’s intent was.

I am not sure that the absence of these words makes the whole concept invalid. I think we can all agree on that, but I would argue that Jefferson's intent gets overshadowed by the Supreme Court decisions that are handed down, which would outweigh his intent in my view.

I also think that his intent is not the be all end of the debate. Madison, for example, and Jefferson seemed to disagree on some of these issues. I think it is unfair to quote one founding father as the authority, when in reality they were all having the same debates we are having to an extent.

 

[Pandora]

I am not sure that the absence of these words makes the whole concept invalid. I think we can all agree on that, but I would argue that Jefferson's intent gets overshadowed by the Supreme Court decisions that are handed down, which would outweigh his intent in my view.

I also think that his intent is not the be all end of the debate. Madison, for example, and Jefferson seemed to disagree on some of these issues. I think it is unfair to quote one founding father as the authority, when in reality they were all having the same debates we are having to an extent.

Madison and Jefferson disagreed, I will give you that but they BOTH went to church on sunday in a GOVERNMENT building as did everyone else in that day.


Here is a link to a site that talks about it, I just skimmed over the link I dont know how good it is but it had the first part accurate about Jefferson and Madison attending church in govenrment buidings so Im posting it.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

 

[samsara15]

You seem intent on getting me to say the ACLU is not bias, but if I say that then I am a liar. There is nothing wrong with them being bias; it’s their right to defend the freedoms they define as important. It would be against freedom to force them to defend freedoms that either doesn’t matter to them or they are against.

You want me to make "some small effort towards neutrality”?

Why not just say what is true and call it good? They defend Liberal and progressive rights that are important to them, that is also who funds them.

Again, there is nothing wrong with what they do; it’s their right as Americans. Why is that not good enough for you to just be honest about what they are and who they serve?

Then, I presume, you would agree that there are more than one equally vaild versions of what is means to honor the tenets of Classical Liberalism and Conservatism?

 

[BigRob]

Madison and Jefferson disagreed, I will give you that but they BOTH went to church on sunday in a GOVERNMENT building as did everyone else in that day.

That does not mean that the notion of separation of church and state is somehow made less valid in my view. It would only be a violation in my view if they forced other citizens (by law) to attend the same services.

 

[GenSeneca]

I do hate liberalism, its what is killing our Country that I love so much.

There hasn't been any liberalism. Just as there hasn't been any conservatism. All we've seen for more than 100 years is Progressivism and it really is killing the country. Progressives are the ones building and concentrating the power in Washington, away from the states and away from the individual. Progressives are the ones who built and continue expanding the welfare state, they are the ones limiting freedom and otherwise violating the Constitution along with the tenets of Liberalism, as well as the principles of Libertarianism and Conservatism.

That was the point of this thread, to get people on all sides to understand that Progressives in both parties are pitting us against each other. Liberals, Libertarians and Conservatives have a great deal in common and we need to unite to defeat the progressive scourge.

You have to learn to recognize the difference between Liberals and Progressives because Progressives will call themselves Liberals. You know the difference between a Rat and a Squirrel right? Well, Progressives are Rats that call themselves squirrels. If you only notice that they are both rodents, you won't notice the difference but if you know squirrels have fluffy tails, you can spot the rats hiding among them.

From my own POV, it is Conservativism that is killing the nation.

Its been nearly 100 years since any conservatives have had enough control in Washington to make any significant changes. You don't like Bush, well he was a Progressive Republican, same as his father George Herbert Walker "New World Order" Bush. I guarantee you were not alive the last time a Conservative Republican were in office.

You only think Conservatism is bad because you mistakenly equate Conservatism with religion... You have proudly declared that you are a Socialist, would you also by chance consider yourself an Atheist? As a quid-pro-quo, I am Non-Religious.

 

[Pandora]

There hasn't been any liberalism. Just as there hasn't been any conservatism. All we've seen for more than 100 years is Progressivism and it really is killing the country. Progressives are the ones building and concentrating the power in Washington, away from the states and away from the individual. Progressives are the ones who built and continue expanding the welfare state, they are the ones limiting freedom and otherwise violating the Constitution along with the tenets of Liberalism, as well as the principles of Libertarianism and Conservatism.

That was the point of this thread, to get people on all sides to understand that Progressives in both parties are pitting us against each other. Liberals, Libertarians and Conservatives have a great deal in common and we need to unite to defeat the progressive scourge.

You have to learn to recognize the difference between Liberals and Progressives because Progressives will call themselves Liberals. You know the difference between a Rat and a Squirrel right? Well, Progressives are Rats that call themselves squirrels. If you only notice that they are both rodents, you won't notice the difference but if you know squirrels have fluffy tails, you can spot the rats hiding among them.


Its been nearly 100 years since any conservatives have had enough control in Washington to make any significant changes. You don't like Bush, well he was a Progressive Republican, same as his father George Herbert Walker "New World Order" Bush. I guarantee you were not alive the last time a Conservative Republican were in office.

You only think Conservatism is bad because you mistakenly equate Conservatism with religion... You have proudly declared that you are a Socialist, would you also by chance consider yourself an Atheist? As a quid-pro-quo, I am Non-Religious.

I see what you are saying and I agree with it, I am just used to the term liberals but there is not much liberal about them except for in the areas they want to promote, and I would agree that even though I consider myself a conservative I doubt I am even close to what a real conservative is.

 

[Pandora]

That does not mean that the notion of separation of church and state is somehow made less valid in my view. It would only be a violation in my view if they forced other citizens (by law) to attend the same services.

Do you agree with kicking a kid out of school if they pray for their teacher?
or denying a kid who was asked to speak at graduation to be able to say they felt it was God who got them through the tough times to get them to where they are today?

The law is ridiculous in my opinion, you can’t say god at school or pray but the congress cant open session without a prayer.

I think the original intent on this issue is important but its ok if we disagree. That’s what makes our Country so great