The monstrous Christian / Islamic God

[pocketfullofshells]

I was about to say what you just said: if one does not believe in hell then there is no harm done.

When a Christian tells you that you are going to hell they (hopefully) do not mean it in the way that it is often used which means "I want you to go to hell." but more in the way your doctor means it when he says "you have a growth on your liver."

One difference that I can see is that the doctor has your permission to be involved in your business. I think people should either address discussions of hell to generic discussions about hell and all unbelievers or if talking to a specific person then to have some sort of permission. Getting back to the doctor analogy if a doctor went on TV talking about the signs of liver growths he would certainly be heard by someone who had a sign of liver growths but he would not be imposing himself into their life. And he would also be acting kindly if his patient who asked for help was informed about liver growths. What the doctor should not do is walk up to a stranger on the subway and tell them that he can see that they have a liver growth. Suppose he sat next to that person and struck up a conversation. Suppose he steered that conversation toward a discussion of liver growths? Eventually he might get permission to talk about it. From what you have described your "friends" have taken that approach. You have provided the proof that they are attempting to be sensitive to your right to be left alone.

(As a side note I would point out that anyone on a political forum who engages in a religious discussion has given permission to hear any point of view.)

I have yes, on here...however when people have said things to me at my place of work ( customers) I am not able to say anything back...nor have I given them reason to talk to me about it...let alone basically say I am a immoral person or something to that effect...I just had to sit and take it basically because for some reason telling a ignorant person that they are a idiot and I think there Religion is a Sham...at work, does not go over well.

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: zakiyeh

At last. A Muslim who at least sounds like he knows what he (or she) is talking about.

I am curious about how Muslims interpret Obadiah 1:21. I have read every translation I know and they all say the same thing to me: That the house of Esau is doomed.

What say you?

I don't know very much about this. And actually I havn't read any direct islamic interpretation of it. It would be quite easy to accept such an interpretation if we are talkig about what had happenned in the past; because things and people change through history. So I have a question here:
Is it referred to in describing and foreseeing the israel-palestine problems today or is it just a historical matter?
I knew that there are religeous texts that jews refer to as a proof for their right in the land. But there are stories of this bani-israel men (the sons of israel, which is the other name of yaqub") in Quran and how they have behaved through history that stops me from any quick interpretation.

 

[invest07]

zaki

"Muhammad was raised in the religion of the Moon-god Allah. But he went one step further than his fellow pagan Arabs. While they believed that Allah, i.e. the Moon-god, was the greatest of all gods and the supreme deity in a pantheon of deities, Muhammad decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god.

In effect he said, "Look, you already believe that the Moon-god Allah is the greatest of all gods. All I want you to do is to accept that the idea that he is the only god. I am not taking away the Allah you already worship. I am only taking away his wife and his daughters and all the other gods." This is seen from the fact that the first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the pagan Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To the pagans, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their God too. But both the Jews and the Christians knew better and that is why they rejected his god Allah as a false god."

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

There are probably a hundred explanations of Allah as a pagan moon god and why he is NOT the god of Abraham and Jesus. And every one I have read says almost exactly what this explanation says.

Like I said: Allah ain't God.

And if you believe Allah is the God of Abraham and Jesus, you have been duped. Allah is the pagan moon god of Muhammed's tribe. When Muhammed invented Islam, he just sold a bill of goods that you should worship Allah only and not all his relatives. Allah is a pagan at his origin and is still a pagan.

After the Big M died, his mullahs had a hard sell with Islam. They needed a serious dose of believability. So they invented the Allah is God myth to gain respectability by now being able to use the Bible as a source.

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: zaki

After the Big M died, his mullahs had a hard sell with Islam. They needed a serious dose of believability. So they invented the Allah is God myth to gain respectability by now being able to use the Bible as a source.

What do you say then about the Quran? is that invented by the Mullah's too do you think? I told you it is written in Quran that Allah is the God of Moses and Jesus. Quran was send and announced by and at the time of prophet Muhammad himself. Can he have said two different words at the time?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Re: zaki

"Muhammad was raised in the religion of the Moon-god Allah. But he went one step further than his fellow pagan Arabs. While they believed that Allah, i.e. the Moon-god, was the greatest of all gods and the supreme deity in a pantheon of deities, Muhammad decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god.

In effect he said, "Look, you already believe that the Moon-god Allah is the greatest of all gods. All I want you to do is to accept that the idea that he is the only god. I am not taking away the Allah you already worship. I am only taking away his wife and his daughters and all the other gods." This is seen from the fact that the first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the pagan Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To the pagans, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their God too. But both the Jews and the Christians knew better and that is why they rejected his god Allah as a false god."

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

There are probably a hundred explanations of Allah as a pagan moon god and why he is NOT the god of Abraham and Jesus. And every one I have read says almost exactly what this explanation says.

Like I said: Allah ain't God.

And if you believe Allah is the God of Abraham and Jesus, you have been duped. Allah is the pagan moon god of Muhammed's tribe. When Muhammed invented Islam, he just sold a bill of goods that you should worship Allah only and not all his relatives. Allah is a pagan at his origin and is still a pagan.

After the Big M died, his mullahs had a hard sell with Islam. They needed a serious dose of believability. So they invented the Allah is God myth to gain respectability by now being able to use the Bible as a source.

sounds like only debate you have is, the name, not the fact that the koran spells out that Allah is the same god, as Jesus and Moses, and Abraham.

 

[Dr.Who]

And another intersting subject that relates more to the subject of the thread:
When prophet Muhammad was asked by his tribe about his God, He said my God is Ar-Rahman"; meaning "most mercifull" (so if Muslims God happens to be different then he is the kind one!)
There are 99 names of God enumerated in islam, each representing certain attributes or descriptions of God; in which God is seen as being the source and maximum extent of each name's meaning. The names Ar-Rahman and Ar-Raheem are the most frequently mentioned in the Qur'an, both meaning the "Most Merciful", but with different emphasis' of meaning, either of which are also often translated as the "Most Compassionate" or the "Most Beneficent".

God is very very merciful. Is the expression of God's mercy a result of what we do or a result of who He is?

 

[dahermit]

God is very very merciful.

For those of us who find that statement ambiguous, can you please give two (one for each "very"), modern history examples of God's mercy?

 

[dahermit]

For those of us who find that statement ambiguous, can you please give two (one for each "very"), modern history examples of God's mercy?

Waited for a response...there was none. O.K., just one example then?

 

[zakiyeh]

God is very very merciful. Is the expression of God's mercy a result of what we do or a result of who He is?

Good question!
It is both!
well you see I told you about the two names "Ar-Rahman" and "Ar-Rahim". The first one relates to God's general mercy towards all mankind and every creature; that is by giving them the gift of existence; with all the opportunities of life. These include the basic endowments such as the food you eat, the water you drink, the soothe and calm you get in your shared (marital) life, etc and also the gift of a clear soul, a mind which can realise good from evil, a kind heart...(these can be ruined by yourself though!) and finally showing you the right path of life by sending guidance through his prophets;
Here if you become a believer and act according to God's words, then starts the other flow of his mecy, and that is an in-religion guide which has it's own rules for forgiving sins, enlightening souls, showing the way to emancipation(more step by step kind of guidance), etc.

Actually both are somehow the result of who he is: he has conditionned some of his mercy on account of who we are and what we do. There is a complicated net of rules for what he gives us and what he withholds. But what is important is that the basis of such a network is justice and something more... compassion and mercy.
If there is no darkness nobody will understand and enjoy light... this is the logic!

 

[zakiyeh]

For those of us who find that statement ambiguous, can you please give two (one for each "very"), modern history examples of God's mercy?

1-Just the fact that you are breathing now is a sign of God's mercy!
However it seems that you want a non-individual example, and what more, a historic one...; this makes it somehow difficult; and that's because of all the conflicts between us on earth; and because of the network of rules I just talked about in answer to Dr.Who ( you see mankind today is more an un-believer and does more evil than good so it deserves less mercy!)
but here's an example anyway!:
2- I see the victory of the empty-handed iranians in their revolution at 1979 over the american-supported regime of Shah, a result of God's mercy and his thanksgiving for all the hardship the iranian people went through for their beliefs. Actually it did seem so unbelievable to the world that it justifies the idea of the God's hand at work!

note 1: example num-1 is timeless. mankind has always received God's compassion through his maintaining what he needs for a living; i.e food, oxigen, water,...
note 2:example num-2 sound more like the second kind of mercy I talked about in my last post. I'm sure there are a lot more convincing examples than this for most people in this site (which are american), but I just preferred to stick to this one! Now you get the pattern you can replace it with your version!

 

[Dr.Who]

Good question!
It is both!
well you see I told you about the two names "Ar-Rahman" and "Ar-Rahim". The first one relates to God's general mercy towards all mankind and every creature; that is by giving them the gift of existence; with all the opportunities of life. These include the basic endowments such as the food you eat, the water you drink, the soothe and calm you get in your shared (marital) life, etc and also the gift of a clear soul, a mind which can realise good from evil, a kind heart...(these can be ruined by yourself though!) and finally showing you the right path of life by sending guidance through his prophets;
Here if you become a believer and act according to God's words, then starts the other flow of his mecy, and that is an in-religion guide which has it's own rules for forgiving sins, enlightening souls, showing the way to emancipation(more step by step kind of guidance), etc.

Actually both are somehow the result of who he is: he has conditionned some of his mercy on account of who we are and what we do. There is a complicated net of rules for what he gives us and what he withholds. But what is important is that the basis of such a network is justice and something more... compassion and mercy.
If there is no darkness nobody will understand and enjoy light... this is the logic!

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

i agree that God is merciful when he restrains a hostile universe and shapes it to be conducive to life on Earth. He gives us air and gravity and in general a good universe. This is not earned and reflects only His goodness.

I also agree that there are blessings that come with right living.

To me, though, the forgiveness that is part of God's grace reflects his character and is not the result of me earning it in any way.

 

[Dr.Who]

For those of us who find that statement ambiguous, can you please give two (one for each "very"), modern history examples of God's mercy?

1)

“The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron …. The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been finely adjusted to make possible the development of life.”

Stephen Hawking


2)

The message of God's plan to forgive every person of faith has been spoken to all the world. You yourself have heard it sometime recently and can respond to it. You know enough of God's nature to know what has been said - that if you love Him and trust Him He will forgive you and walk with you and you with Him. Everything you need to know about God is displayed in the universe for all to see (see above that even Stephen Hawking saw it (though he rejects God)) and also everything you need to know about God is contained in your heart (often called a conscience).

No evil that others do can counteract the testimony that is clear for all to see. No false prophet can completely cause you to not understand what is there for you to see. You have what you need to know and love God and no one can take that away from you.

 

[invest07]

To zakiyeh

So the Koran/Quran says Allah is the God of Abraham?
Maybe you can give me some details. I happen to have a copy of the Big M's book right here. Keep it in the bathroom right beside the toilet. Perhaps you can tell me which Sura and verse.

 

[invest07]

Dr. Who

Right you are, about the remarkable finetuning values seem to reflect in our universe.

If you accept the Big Bang as the origin of our universe, you have to be astounded at the finetuning required to produce a universe. If the blast is slightly stronger, then the matter keeps speeding into space and no planet or star formation is possible. If the blast is only a miniscule weaker, then the whole mess collapses onto itself.

The finetuning of the Big Bang blast was somewhere around 10 to the 21 power.

Look at the finetuning of only one of our earth's components, the atmosphere:

1. The atmosphere contains enough oxygen to support life but not too much so as to support uncontrolled combustion.
2. The atmosphere is precisely the correct mix to filter UV radiation, which is toxic to life.
3. The atmosphere is kept in motion by the earth's rotation at the correct speed. This motion creates wind and rain and snow.
4. The atmsophere is rich in nitrogen which is essential for green leafy plants.
5. The product of animal exhalation, C02, is absorbed by green plants leaves and converted to growth energy via photosynthesis.

You can create a list of 70-80 variables that somehow all came together at the optimum value to produce not only life but a huge variety of life on earth.

Some have convinced themselves this is only a lucky coincidence.

Yeah, right.

 

[dahermit]

Re: Dr. Who

Right you are, about the remarkable finetuning values seem to reflect in our universe.

If you accept the Big Bang as the origin of our universe, you have to be astounded at the finetuning required to produce a universe. If the blast is slightly stronger, then the matter keeps speeding into space and no planet or star formation is possible. If the blast is only a miniscule weaker, then the whole mess collapses onto itself.

The finetuning of the Big Bang blast was somewhere around 10 to the 21 power.

Look at the finetuning of only one of our earth's components, the atmosphere:

1. The atmosphere contains enough oxygen to support life but not too much so as to support uncontrolled combustion.
2. The atmosphere is precisely the correct mix to filter UV radiation, which is toxic to life.
3. The atmosphere is kept in motion by the earth's rotation at the correct speed. This motion creates wind and rain and snow.
4. The atmsophere is rich in nitrogen which is essential for green leafy plants.
5. The product of animal exhalation, C02, is absorbed by green plants leaves and converted to growth energy via photosynthesis.

You can create a list of 70-80 variables that somehow all came together at the optimum value to produce not only life but a huge variety of life on earth.

Some have convinced themselves this is only a lucky coincidence.

Yeah, right.

The other planets in our solar system not having those five points do not have his merciful fine tuning?