Why does Israel do what it does?

[Coyote]

Absolutely right. Its all about Demographics. Its a slow Ethnic Cleansing. For four decades, Israel has pushed to build and expand Jewish neighborhoods, while restricting the growth in Arab parts.

I can’t imagine the vitriol that would be packaged as journalism if some southern US state were to, say, subsidize the construction of white neighborhoods and yet refuse permits for private building in overcrowded black neighborhoods.

Exactly. As another example Palestinians are routinely denied building permits in Jeruselum - permits that are regularly given Jewish citizens.

 

[palerider]

Clearly, you need to get some education on what is going on in the region. Next time you post, try addressing some of the points that are made instead of just flinging insults. Thats the sign of a very weak mind.

The only insults hurled around here are from you and I agree that hurling insult is the sign of a weak mind.

In case you are not able to remember the insults you have hurled, let me remind you with just a few of the many:

"Clearly you need to learn how to read. "

"Ooh look folks, a wannabe war nerd. (Cackles evilly)."

"palerider, you make me puke."

 

[palerider]

Exactly. As another example Palestinians are routinely denied building permits in Jeruselum - permits that are regularly given Jewish citizens.

So you are saying that you don't like it when jews use the same sort of tactics that arabs have been using for centuries?

 

[9sublime]

For centuries? I didn't realise they had strict building regulations back in the 1600's.

 

[ArmChair General]

The only insults hurled around here are from you and I agree that hurling insult is the sign of a weak mind.

In case you are not able to remember the insults you have hurled, let me remind you with just a few of the many:

"Clearly you need to learn how to read. "

"Ooh look folks, a wannabe war nerd. (Cackles evilly)."

"palerider, you make me puke."

Ooh, I bet those made you cry too. lol

 

[9sublime]

Palerider, they are not really insults, and you pointing them out and trying to be the perfect forum member only breaks down the discussion more.

 

[Kelly]

Sorry it has taken so long to add a comment to the topic I posted. Ok Palerider:
1. The Israelis are committing ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians just like Hitler tried to do to the Jews. I think Arm Chair General pretty much cleared that up for all of us, as well as the "building permit" thing that Coyote mentioned. They obviously couldn't use gas chambers, but they ARE trying to replace the area's demographic and result to killing innocent people to accomplish their means. Just because the IDF uses more sophisticated weaponry does not mean they're any better than Jihadis. Blasting an entire neighborhood of innocent people with American-made Apache helicopters just because you 'think' a terror suspect is there is just as completely worthless and low-down as blowing yourself up in a Starbucks.
2. Answer the question, don't beat around the bush! Why is it every time anyone criticizes the genocide, or 'retaliations' as you call it, they eventually become accused of being anti-semitic when the pro-Israeli side of the argument gets backed into a corner (because you can't polish a turd-'turd' being Israel's actions, not Israel itself). 3. Israel is a rogue state. It has NO respect for any other nation except a (probably fake) respect for the U.S. Haven't you ever followed any U.N. meeting involving Israel? They always get up and walk out like spoiled children when members of the Security Council tell them things they don't like--and the U.S. always follows. Israel is like the 'skinny kid on the block' who will get his big brother(U.S.) to bully you if you don't let him have his way.
4. Asked them for anything? Why haven't they helped us in this stupid war? They only tried to take advantage of the situation with their miserable attempt at the Lebanese land grab. Why aren't they in Iraq? Why don't they take our wounded soldiers into their hospitals? Where were they in the first Gulf War? Israel is NO ally of the United States! What about that U.S. (really Israeli) sailor they just convicted for spying on us and giving the IDF classified info on our nuclear submarines? Don't think for a second that Israel is any true friend of the U.S.! They'd abandon us (well..at least all of the Gentiles in America) in a heartbeat if it would further their own agenda.
5. Oh, yes there IS a Constitutional separation of church and state--the First Amendment. By granting and enforcing freedom to all religious practice, the U.S. government can't interfere with religious organizations--that includes supporting a particular religious organization. Sure, religious organizations lobby the government, but there IS a constitutional separation of church and state. Why do you think those freaks are so pissed that their kids can't pray in school? If you teach kids Protestant Creationism, you'd be going against the Catholic notion that God created us by the method of evolution. Hopefully this example can help you see the Constitutional separation of church and state.
6. I was not saying that I wanted the U.S. to administer foreign policy based on Torah. I was asking why Israel would have any foreign alliances. You should actually READ things before you form opinions about them!!! This question has nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy. I'm asking why, from the Israeli perspective, would Israel have any foreign alliances considering the fact that basically Jewish Law prohibits it.
The questions I asked ARE serious questions. You just get bogged down by semantics Palerider. You obviously are extremely biased about Israel and try to pick apart the details of my statements because you don't like the obvious truth. Don't tell me that my position is based on sarcasm and exaggeration! My position is based on fact. Israel murders innocent Palestinians, it is committing ethnic cleansing, it has never sacrificed anything to help the United States, and it has no regard for the opinions of other nations in regard to its foreign policy. YOUR position is the inaccurate position. Your position is not only based on exaggeration and sarcasm, but on blindness, spinning the truth, and basically being a blockhead. I HAVE asked serious questions (why else have you engaged in this discussion like you have?). Now, why don't YOU give some serious ANSWERS instead of spewing empty rhetoric and nitpicking technicalities (which, by the way, you are wrong about).

 

[TheWaffle]

Sorry it has taken so long to add a comment to the topic I posted. Ok Palerider:
1. The Israelis are committing ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians just like Hitler tried to do to the Jews. I think Arm Chair General pretty much cleared that up for all of us, as well as the "building permit" thing that Coyote mentioned. They obviously couldn't use gas chambers, but they ARE trying to replace the area's demographic and result to killing innocent people to accomplish their means. Just because the IDF uses more sophisticated weaponry does not mean they're any better than Jihadis. Blasting an entire neighborhood of innocent people with American-made Apache helicopters just because you 'think' a terror suspect is there is just as completely worthless and low-down as blowing yourself up in a Starbucks. 2. Answer the question, don't beat around the bush! Why is it every time anyone criticizes the genocide, or 'retaliations' as you call it, they eventually become accused of being anti-semetic when the pro-israeli side of the argument gets backed into a corner (because you can't polish a turd-'turd' being Israel's actions, not Israel itself). 3. Israel is a rogue state. It has NO respect for any other nation except a (probably fake) respect for the U.S. Haven't you ever followed any U.N. meeting involving Israel? They always get up and walk out like spoiled children when members of the Security Council tell them things they don't like--and the U.S. always follows. Israel is like the 'skinny kid on the block' who will get his big brother(U.S.) to bully you if you don't let him have his way. 4. Asked them for anything? Why haven't they helped us in this stupid war? They only tried to take advantage of the situation with their miserable attempt at the Lebanese land grab. Why aren't they in Iraq. Why don't they take our wounded soldiers into their hospitals? Where were they in the first Gulf War. Israel is NO ally of the United States! What about that U.S. sailor they just convicted for spying on us and giving the IDF classified info on our nuclear submarines? Don't think for a second that Israel is any true friend of the U.S.! They'd abandon us (well..at least all of the Gentiles in America) in a heartbeat if it would further their own agenda. Oh, yes there IS a Constitutional separation of church and state. The First Amendment. By granting and enforcing freedom to all religious practice, the U.S. government can't interfere with religious organizations--that includes supporting a particular religious organization. Sure, religious organizations lobby the government, but there IS a constitutional separation of church and state. Why do you think those freaks are so pissed that their kids can't pray in school? If you teach kids Protestant Creationism, you'd be going against the Catholic notion that God created us by the method of evolution. Hopefully this example can help you see the Constitutional separation of church and state. 6. I was not saying that I wanted the U.S. to administer foreign policy based on Torah. I was asking why Israel would have any foreign alliances. This question has nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy. I'm asking why, from the Israeli perspective, would Israel have any foreign alliances considering the fact that basically Jewish Law prohibits it. The questions I asked ARE serious questions. You just get bogged down by semantics Palerider. You obviously are extremely biased about Israel and try to pick apart the details of my statements because you don't like the obvious truth. Don't tell me that my position is based on sarcasm and exaggeration! My position is based on fact. Israel murders innocent Palestinians, it is committing ethnic cleansing, it has never sacrificed anything to help the United States, and it has no regard for the opinions of other nations in regard to its foreign policy. YOUR position is the inaccurate position. Your position is not only based on exaggeration and sarcasm, but on blindness, spinning the truth, and basically being a blockhead. I HAVE asked serious questions (why else have you engaged in this discussion like you have?). Now, why don't YOU give some serious ANSWERS instead of nitpicking technicalities (which, by the way, you are wrong about) like some sort of bottom-feeder.

I hope you realize exactly how much credibility you lose in comparing the Israeli and Palestinian situation to the Holocaust. Israel has willingly pulled out of the Palestinian lands that they have held for years. Israel forced its own people out of their homes to give the Palestinians back their homeland. Whole segments of the border fence have been redesigned because of the qualm of one Palestinian farmer or another. The Israelis have justification in their strikes. Missiles rain down on the homes of their people and then they blow up the launch site. The Lebanese government is full of **** when they say that they can't stop the terrorists in their own country. It's not hard to find them when they're launching rockets out of hotel windows.

You want to know why Israel isn't part of the Iraq war? Look at how we look after starting this war. Britain's Prime Minister is stepping down and his nation played a minor role. Can you imagine what would happen if Israel stepped in. First of all their available forces would be only symbolically helpful, but the Middle East would see it as Israel trying grab up more land. Just the same way they see us having invaded for no reason. In Lebanon they had clear purpose as they were being fired upon daily. I like how we are so incredulous that no one will help us with the war after alienating others and seeing how little support there was from the start.

How can you accuse Israel of being so selfish when time after time it has been provoked into wars, destroyed the opposition, and then in the end returned the land that they shed blood to secure.

 

[9sublime]

Apart from the holocaust/ethnic cleansing part every other point is pretty much true to be honest.

 

[Kelly]

Waffle, the Palestinians have been systematically rounded up, forced into the Gaza Strip and West Bank (economic slums), and murdered. Yes, some of it was out of self-defense on Israel's part, but we've all seen evidence that far more innocent Palestinians are killed that guilty ones. What ever happens to the Israelis that kill innocent Palestinians? What ever happened to the Israeli who bulldozed the American girl to death? There's your proof! It is ethnic cleansing any way you word it or look at it. When people get all sensitive about comparing Israel's actions towards the Palestinians to the Nazis, they are placing more importance on the past than on the present. Yes, the Holocaust was probably the most awful thing to ever happen in the history of this world, but considering that it did happen, why in the hell would so many of the Jews that subsequently went to Israel start participating in ethnic cleansing, even if it is on a smaller scale than the Holocaust? Sure, I loose some credibility when I make the comparison...to people who have already made up their minds any way about Israel/Palestine. The point is: Israel has committed ethnic cleansing after many of its constituents endured the same evils in the Holocaust--like it or not, it's the truth. Giving back a few town home sites doesn't make it any better. Plus, they might rerout their racial wall, but there still IS a wall! That's the point. About Lebanon, that fiasco started because an Israeli tank gunner (and I believe another soldier) was kidnapped in retaliation for some Israeli jerk firing off artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason. Rockets were not fired from Lebanon until Israel invaded. Sure Israel was pissed about their kidnapped soldiers, but they had ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to invade Lebanon like that and devistate its infrastructure after it had finally became some what of a peaceful place. Just for two non-civilian lives. I mean there's your proof of Israel's racist way. They think two of their boys are more important than an entire country of people. Israel was the real terrorist in Lebanon. If you still think Israel was justified in its invasion of Lebanon, you would have to agree that the U.S. should invade Israel and destroy its infrastructure because an Israeli grunt ran over an American girl with a bulldozer (she was not even a member of the armed forces--just a civilian). I totally agree with you about us being incredulous and alienating others and wondering why nobody helps us in this war. However, we have alienated others to often support Israel's actions and Israel has not even offered to help us with military, supplies, or even a staging ground.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

I hope you realize exactly how much credibility you lose in comparing the Israeli and Palestinian situation to the Holocaust.

How about comparing the genocides committed by the Hebrews in the Old Testament to the Holocaust? I don't think even the Nazis butchered infants.

 

[9sublime]

I'm pretty sure the Nazis butchered children too, they did everything else.

 

[vyo476]

How about comparing the genocides committed by the Hebrews in the Old Testament to the Holocaust? I don't think even the Nazis butchered infants.

A passage from Eli Wiesel's memoir, Night:

Not far from us, flames were leaping from a ditch, gigantic flames. They were burning something. A lorry drew up to the pit and delivered its load - little children. Babies! Yes, I saw it - saw it with my own eyes...those children in the flames. (32)

So yes...the Nazis did butcher children too.

 

[TheWaffle]

How about comparing the genocides committed by the Hebrews in the Old Testament to the Holocaust? I don't think even the Nazis butchered infants.

Are you serious right now? Are we going to start getting sore about incidents from three thousand years ago?

1. How ignorant are you to believe the Nazis did not kill infants? They ransacked the ghettos and threw the sick and children from the windows onto the pavement below. They ran unspeakable science experiments on Jewish Children.

2. If you are really going to come out and talk about Hebrews being representative of today's Israel then let's start by taking a look at the world's most prevalent mass murderers...Christians. Oh yes, how about how the Crusaders raped and pillaged Constantinople and slaughtered the "infidels." How about the massacre of the Hugenots in France. Let's go and talk about all the ethnic cleansing in Africa, most of them in Christian nations.

I gotta say Truth-Bringer I usually respect your opinion but here you're just being ridiculous. Saying we still bear the burden of events from three thousand years ago is like saying that everyone should hate the Italians because back in 9 AD they killed some Germans. It is other people who bring up the Holocaust, (which by the way clearly proved the need for an Jewish state).

 

[TheWaffle]

Waffle, the Palestinians have been systematically rounded up, forced into the Gaza Strip and West Bank (economic slums), and murdered. Yes, some of it was out of self-defense on Israel's part, but we've all seen evidence that far more innocent Palestinians are killed that guilty ones. What ever happens to the Israelis that kill innocent Palestinians? What ever happened to the Israeli who bulldozed the American girl to death? There's your proof! It is ethnic cleansing any way you word it or look at it. When people get all sensitive about comparing Israel's actions towards the Palestinians to the Nazis, they are placing more importance on the past than on the present. Yes, the Holocaust was probably the most awful thing to ever happen in the history of this world, but considering that it did happen, why in the hell would so many of the Jews that subsequently went to Israel start participating in ethnic cleansing, even if it is on a smaller scale than the Holocaust? Sure, I loose some credibility when I make the comparison...to people who have already made up their minds any way about Israel/Palestine. The point is: Israel has committed ethnic cleansing after many of its constituents endured the same evils in the Holocaust--like it or not, it's the truth. Giving back a few town home sites doesn't make it any better. Plus, they might rerout their racial wall, but there still IS a wall! That's the point. About Lebanon, that fiasco started because an Israeli tank gunner (and I believe another soldier) was kidnapped in retaliation for some Israeli jerk firing off artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason. Rockets were not fired from Lebanon until Israel invaded. Sure Israel was pissed about their kidnapped soldiers, but they had ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to invade Lebanon like that and devistate its infrastructure after it had finally became some what of a peaceful place. Just for two non-civilian lives. I mean there's your proof of Israel's racist way. They think two of their boys are more important than an entire country of people. Israel was the real terrorist in Lebanon. If you still think Israel was justified in its invasion of Lebanon, you would have to agree that the U.S. should invade Israel and destroy its infrastructure because an Israeli grunt ran over an American girl with a bulldozer (she was not even a member of the armed forces--just a civilian). I totally agree with you about us being incredulous and alienating others and wondering why nobody helps us in this war. However, we have alienated others to often support Israel's actions and Israel has not even offered to help us with military, supplies, or even a staging ground.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm

Number 1. Get your god damn facts straight. Israel had not stepped one foot into Lebanon before those Katusha Rockets hit. The raid and rocket attacks took place on July 12th 2006. Israel began military action July 13th.

Also Hezbollah in the same attack where it abducted the soldiers it had killed three other soldiers. That is a direct act of war. And this terrorist organization has solid representation in the Lebanese government. How can you say that Israel was not completely justified in their actions? Something had to be done. No nation will simply allow a foreign military to conduct raids and kidnappings and artillery strikes on its soil without serious repercussions.

I just don't understand what you want. You say that Israel giving back the Palestinian lands is not enough? You say that establishing a Palestinian government is not enough. And apparently you deny that Israel gives the Palestinians full rights...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#b

Palestinians have full voting rights and some even hold office. In fact the only real difference between the Jewish citizens and non-Jews, as pointed out in this link above, is that the Jewish citizens have compulsory military service.