Define conservatism

Perhaps in the days when isolationism was a valid option. Those days ended, however, soon after the end of WWII when the soviet union set about realizing its vision of a communist world.

It's been nearly twenty years since that rationale stopped lending itself to justify the policy of ubiquitous US meddling.

Conservativism doesn't mean holding on to a strategy when that strategy has been rendered impotent simply for the sake of hanging on to tradition.

As a matter of fact, conservatism IS about holding to that which is timeless and good.
What is more conservative than following the very plain language and clear advice of those who founded this country ( to "avoid foreign entanglements") ?
Really,
given that you speak of an 'impotent strategy' - what could render the United States more so, than to spread its money and the blood of its youth ...all over the globe in hopes of policing transactions in every continent of the world ?
Remember when I asked in a prior post 'why the sun set on the British Empire' ?

Take a look at history and you'll find the answer: Great Britain spread itself too thin in just that way.
 
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As a matter of fact, conservatism IS about holding to that which is timeless and good. [/quote]

Describe exactly what is good about covering ones eyes and ears in an isolationist mode and pretending that so long as one doesn't actually acknowledge that radical islam wants us all dead that there is no danger.

What is more conservative than following the very plain language and clear advice of those who founded this country ( to "avoid foreign entanglements") ?

Those that founded the country didn't have to worry about an insidious enemy coming over here with a suitcase nuclear weapon or some sort of biological or chemical weapon that could kill literally millions.

given that you speak of an 'impotent strategy' - what could render the United States more so, than to spread its money and the blood of its youth ...all over the globe in hopes of policing transactions in every continent of the world ?

Not doing anything at all and simply waiting for someone to set off a nuclear/chemical/ biological weapon.

Remember when I asked in a prior post 'why the sun set on the British Empire' ?

Because the british, like the romans actually tried to build an empire. They set out to claim land, plant their flag, and actually hold that land for generations rather than free people, help them establish governments that could look after the people and not threaten their neighbors.

Take a look at history and you'll find the answer: Great Britain spread itself too thin in just that way.

I have looked at history extensively. If you had taken your own advice and looked at history, you would know that there is no corelation between our intervention in the middle east and the very real attempt by the british to build an empire.
 
Describe exactly what is good about covering ones eyes and ears in an isolationist mode and pretending that so long as one doesn't actually acknowledge that radical islam wants us all dead that there is no danger.

Chicken and egg.
The development of radical Islam has been owing principally to our unsolicited presence in their countries.

Those that founded the country didn't have to worry about an insidious enemy coming over here with a suitcase nuclear weapon or some sort of biological or chemical weapon that could kill literally millions.

Well ? How is our sending troops over there ...going to prevent these guys from coming here with those suitcases ? Is the idea going to be that we stay in the Middle East and kill every single one of them ?

...Particularly with the wide open *haha* southern border -

Mr. NWO Bush has been conferring with his Mexican overlords about that very topic this week btw, and you might find the discussions quite interesting ! Very obsequious ... and note the specific promise to "serve the Mexican people".

Sorry for digressing.
I'll have to finish this later . I know I'm not going to change your mind so this is more or less recreational -
When you think about it, it's gotta be a mellow debate because the very idea of defining the term "conservative" screams "subjective" anyway !

But your assessment of the differences between British empire-building and our own ... is a house built on sand. You have time now to reconsider those remarks before I come back and address them. In other words, think about the distinction you've pointed out, and then think about the similarities.

Have a good evening,
Lilly
 
Chicken and egg.
The development of radical Islam has been owing principally to our unsolicited presence in their countries.

Perhaps a bit of historical research is due on your part. This statement is patently untrue.

How is our sending troops over there ...going to prevent these guys from coming here with that suitcase ?
Particularly with the wide open *haha* southern border ?

There is not one fix all solution. Keeping ourselves safe in this day and age requires that we no longer sit back and wait for our enemy to attack, and we must take our border situation more seriously.

Mr. NWO Bush has been conferring with his Mexican overlords about that very topic this week btw, and you might find the discussions quite interesting ! Very obsequious ...and with a specific promise to "serve the Mexican people".

Once again, you sound as if you think GW is a conservative.
 
Lunged ...the minute I left !

Perhaps a bit of historical research is due on your part. This statement is patently untrue.

Oh really ? Tell me then when you first heard the term "radical Islam".

Once again, you sound as if you think GW is a conservative.

If you think Conservatives are affectionately disposed towards the New World Order/ global governance ...then you do not know any Conservatives.

Meet your first:
Hello palerider, I'm Lilly.

Be back in a bit to see if you have seen the error of your ways vis a vis Great Britain
:)
 
Lunged ...the minute I left !
Oh really ? Tell me then when you first heard the term "radical Islam".

Do you believe that a thing only begins to exist when a "term" is coined for it? Radical islam, the notion of subduing or destroying the infidel and claiming his land is what started the Crusades.

If you think Conservatives are affectionately disposed towards the New World Order/ global governance ...then you do not know any Conservatives.

That is what I said. GW is not a conservative.
 
[What's with this "last visit" thingee at the top right hand side ? It says my last visit was today at 5:06 AM but what I did was just leave myself logged in when I left yesterday ...hmmm]

Do you believe that a thing only begins to exist when a "term" is coined for it? Radical islam, the notion of subduing or destroying the infidel and claiming his land is what started the Crusades.

Subduing or destroying the infidel has not been a consistent preoccupation with Muslims ! It's true that there is that admonition found here and there in their ideology, but if you consider our Christian heritage, it too has had some of that [the "go out to all the world, baptising them in the Name..." has been the premise for quite a few conversions at swordpoint, as well].

We need also to remember that Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity. Look at our "religious campaigns" 700 years ago: we were burning people at the stake, gouging them through with spikes in the Iron Maiden, and so forth.

You know, actually the overarching cause of the Crusades was this: raids on continental Europe by the Vikings precipitated a whole lot of weapon making and orientation towards battle for a considerable brace of years.
After the Viking raids subsided, the "war" economy was in danger of collapse ...until the Pope decided it was time to go wrest the Holy Land back from "the Moors".
That move was probably more pragmatic on his part than we often think, although he was not necessarily aware of it on a conscious level.

That is what I said. GW is not a conservative.

Agreed.
The forays into the Middle East are not remotely illustrative of conservatism.
Unhappily, many well-intentioned people have been gulled by these people including me. I voted for Bush - twice !
But the reasons you and other well-intentioned people have for supporting this type of foreign policy are clearly NOT the reasons he has, whatever he might say at any given time. It's all about global dominance.

What first forced me to see that ...was their calling the Minutemen "vigilantes" in a disparaging way, together with the secretive conspiring in 2005 to draft the SPP (read North American Union).

Anyway, this seems like a decent closing point for the thread...
Thank you for a good discussion; although we may not agree, it doesn't harm us to understand one another's point of view.
 
Subduing or destroying the infidel has not been a consistent preoccupation with Muslims ! It's true that there is that admonition found here and there in their ideology, but if you consider our Christian heritage, it too has had some of that [the "go out to all the world, baptising them in the Name..." has been the premise for quite a few conversions at swordpoint, as well].

We need also to remember that Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity. Look at our "religious campaigns" 700 years ago: we were burning people at the stake, gouging them through with spikes in the Iron Maiden, and so forth.

You know, actually the overarching cause of the Crusades was this: raids on continental Europe by the Vikings precipitated a whole lot of weapon making and orientation towards battle for a considerable brace of years.
After the Viking raids subsided, the "war" economy was in danger of collapse ...until the Pope decided it was time to go wrest the Holy Land back from "the Moors".
That move was probably more pragmatic on his part than we often think, although he was not necessarily aware of it on a conscious level.

Lilly, Lilly, Lilly. Is this what you were taught in school? No offense, but that is the most politically correct package of lies, baseless assumptions, and just plain wrong history that I have heard in quite a while. And having been a history teacher for some time, I have heard some doozies.

A century before the crusades began, were you aware that Rome was besieged by islam? Or have you read of the 450 year siege on Constantinople by islam? A 450 year siege on the capital of Christiandom. Some serious historical research on your part is in order lilly. For instance, you should know that that islam had been savagely persecuting christians in the holy lands, their churches burned by muslims and their lands occupied. You should know that the purpose of the crusades was to return Jeruselum to the Byzantines who had had the holy lands stolen from them by muslim mujahideen.

By about 711, muslims had conquered and were occupying almost all of northern africa, which, by the way was christian by that time. Around that time, they (muslims) set their eye to the west. There is a rock named after the first islamist to set an aggressive foot on european soil. His name was Jebel al-Tariq and his name, over the years has been corrupted into the name Gibraltar.

By 712, muslim armies had fought deep into catholic spain. In fact, in that very year, they over ran Toledo and killed their king. From theire, the muslims headed across the Pyrenees with their sights set on france. Meanwhile back in the east, muslim armies had completely conquered and occupied the Balkans. Muslims would continue to conquer and expand their territories until the failed muslim sieges of Vienna in 1529 and then again in 1683.

After a 1000 year crusade by the muslims, the west finally threw them down. I won't go into all of the barbarism of the muslims during their 1000 year crusade against christians in the name of thier religion, but I will point out some of the places that they came that modern scholars typically ignore in the name of being politically correct.

THe first success westerners had against muslims was in about 732 at the battle of Tours (or Poitiers) in france. Even though they never actually conquered france, they attacked and pillaged for decades after their defeat in Poitiers. They invaded Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica in 827. In 846 they assaulted the outlying areas of Rome. Vy the end of the 9th century, muslims had permanant settlements along the coast of southern france, Italy, and northern Africa from which they relentlessly attacked commerse and christian pilgrims. In fact, it was from one of these permanant settlements that militants first attacked US interests. Thomas Jefferson, then secretary of state was attacked by islamist off the coast of Tripoli.

Let me boil this down for you into some straight forward facts. During the first 3000 years of recorded history, from 2500 BC until 600 AD, there is not one single record, anywhere in the world that records arabs leaving arabia to conquer, plunder, or terrorize anyone. In 622 muhammad announced the beginning of the islamic era. That announcement was made with the pledge to wage war on all of mankind. Until he died, Allah’s messenger aggressively attacked, terrorized, plundered, rapped, enslaved, beguiled or murdered everyone within his reach.

Within 10 years after his death, every arab in arabia had either been forsibly converted to islam or killed as an infidel and from that point on, arabs became the most ruthless and coveous group of people who had ever been. For the next 100 years, just to get warmed up, the sword of islam fell on the necks of the indians, africans and europeans.

Little has changed since those days. Today, in the 21st century, muslims are still responsible for over 95% of the terrorist acts in the world. If you want to discuss islamic aggression act by act, leader by leader, year by year since the year 622, I will be happy to oblige. But don't even try to tell me that the crusades were brought on by the vikings. It is an insult to both our intelligence.

forays into the Middle East are not remotely illustrative of conservatism. Unhappily, many well-intentioned people have been gulled by these people including me.

It is necessary to confront radical islam. They have been aggressors since their inception and in today's world, they are more dangerous than ever. Pretending that you can make nice with a people whose most precious wish is to see you dead is foolhearty at best simply sucicidal at worst and if it is suicidal implulses that prompt people to try and play nice with them, radical islam will happily accomodate their impulses.
 
Yes I do know that Europeans stopped the Muslim advance at Poitiers around 700 AD, and also I knew about Constantinople (in fact being Catholic I was treated to some anecdotes of it, handed down Eastern Orthodox Catholic families).

I am not trying to deny that some Muslims have an agenda to kill non-Muslims; I have heard things Wahabbhists teach the children.

But not all Muslims are Wahabbhists, just as all Christians have not leagued themselves with Fred Phelps.

Most of what I know about the history of Muslims is from Catholic grade school and then regular old high school and undergraduate world history.
Some accounts of history are different from others: undisputed facts may be reported universally, but often different motivations are suggested for those facts according to how the author sees the larger picture.

Sorry I'm hurrying cuz gotta log off now so I'll just hope this post conveys what I'm intending to say. More later -
Have a nice Friday evening !
 
Yes I do know that Europeans stopped the Muslim advance at Poitiers around 700 AD, and also I knew about Constantinople (in fact being Catholic I was treated to some anecdotes of it, handed down Eastern Orthodox Catholic families).

I am not trying to deny that some Muslims have an agenda to kill non-Muslims; I have heard things Wahabbhists teach the children.

But not all Muslims are Wahabbhists, just as all Christians have not leagued themselves with Fred Phelps.

Most of what I know about the history of Muslims is from Catholic grade school and then regular old high school and undergraduate world history.
Some accounts of history are different from others: undisputed facts may be reported universally, but often different motivations are suggested for those facts according to how the author sees the larger picture.

Sorry I'm hurrying cuz gotta log off now so I'll just hope this post conveys what I'm intending to say. More later -
Have a nice Friday evening !

Lilly. Radical islam is islam as evidenced by the fact that very few muslims indeed speak out against the acts of their bretheren. If they do so, they, themselves, become labeled as infidels and are put in danger.

A brilliant historian (afraid I can't remember his name but don't believe the references you will see to Einsten) once said,

"People who believe that islam is a religion of peace don't know sheep **** from wild honey."

I am afraid that statement is more true than 95% of the liberals in the world will realize before it is way too late.
 
I have spoken with a couple of Muslims who were not like that.
Listen to the legislator Keith Ellison speak; he's not like that.

You just provided the reason why many don't speak up ...I understand that. Aren't we all a bit particular about the battles for which we are willing to lay down our lives ?

In any case, I'm sure this is not the last thing we'll have to say about it !

But for right now I wanted to let you know that I posted something for you on the Israeli thread ...thought you might not notice it because I was the last poster there before, too. Please do watch it as soon as you have the chance. It's around 58 minutes long.

And,



to you and everyone here,
Lilly
 
I have spoken with a couple of Muslims who were not like that.
Listen to the legislator Keith Ellison speak; he's not like that.

Ok. There are three so muslims must not be like that and we should ignore thier history since about 623 when muslims drew the first blood and comitted their first robbery/murder.

You just provided the reason why many don't speak up ...I understand that. Aren't we all a bit particular about the battles for which we are willing to lay down our lives ?

Lilly, I really don't think that you know much about islam. You dutifully repeat the PC version that we, as westerners, are supposed to believe, but that version is a fairy tale and practically the only truth in it is that the name of the religion is islam and it was founded by muhammad.

muhammed, claimed to have recieved the qur'an from a "nameless lord" in revelations over the course of 22 years. Only muhammad ever heard these "revelations." He never offered any evidence of his divine inspiration.The qur'an is taken entirely on his word. The Bible, by comparison, had forty authors, all literate, who told a consistent story over the course of fifteen centuries. muhammad, an illiterate, acted alone in the formation of islam and invented his religion over the course of twenty two years.


Today, more than a billion people live in nations controlled by islam or islamic principles. If numbers alone are an indication, muhammad was quite a success. But these nations are among the world’s most destitute, least free, and most violent. They are a never ending source of terror, providing the money, men, motive, and means for murder on the grandest scale the world has ever seen.

In muhammed's invented religion, there were never any miracles, no healings, no parting of seas, no walking on water, no feeding multitudes, no raising people from the dead, not even a fullfillment of prophecy. But the most damning thing to islam is that the life of it's sole "prophet" was as depraved, and dispicable as anyone who ever lived right up to the moment that he died.

He used qur'anic scripture to justify his engagement in some of the most barbaric behavior imaginable. His scrptures gave him permission to engage in incest, rape, pedophilia, assassinations, torture, mass murder, thievery, and terror. His life was an unbridled orgy of sex, power, and money.
 
Ok. There are three so muslims must not be like that and we should ignore thier history since about 623 when muslims drew the first blood and comitted their first robbery/murder.

palerider, bubbling drivel !

You know as well as I that there are more than three Muslims who are not like that.

Assuming their having 'drawn first blood',
wasn't there Someone who told us to forgive ...isn't that part of OUR religion ?
Especially when the offense was nearly fourteen hundred years ago ?


Lilly, I really don't think that you know much about islam....

Well there might be some things I know about Islam which you haven't heard -

For instance, can you tell me the most famous quote by Ibn al-Araibi ?
It is a piece of wisdom worthy of John Paul II in its good will and spiritual maturity, and I will find it for you in case you haven't run across it in whatever diatribes you read against Islam.

muhammed, claimed to have recieved the qur'an from a "nameless lord" in revelations over the course of 22 years. Only muhammad ever heard these "revelations." He never offered any evidence of his divine inspiration.The qur'an is taken entirely on his word. The Bible, by comparison, had forty authors, all literate, who told a consistent story over the course of fifteen centuries. muhammad, an illiterate, acted alone in the formation of islam and invented his religion over the course of twenty two years.

Actually I thought Muhammed said he got it from the angel "Jabril" (Gabriel ?) and I thought the Lord was named Allah.
But what does all this show except that you are sure your faith is the true one and his isn't ?

I'm guessing that you feel the same way about the Hindu faith and the Jewish faith, but that's not grounds to prosecute a war against them with no foreseeable end in sight.

Today, more than a billion people live in nations controlled by islam or islamic principles. If numbers alone are an indication, muhammad was quite a success. But these nations are among the world’s most destitute, least free, and most violent. They are a never ending source of terror, providing the money, men, motive, and means for murder on the grandest scale the world has ever seen.

India is more poor than they, and India is primarily Hindu.
The religion is not the cause of their economic problems.
Palerider,
the Muslim nations were not a source of terror for us - at all - in modern times until we started messing around in the affairs of their countries.

In muhammed's invented religion, there were never any miracles, no healings, no parting of seas, no walking on water, no feeding multitudes, no raising people from the dead, not even a fullfillment of prophecy. But the most damning thing to islam is that the life of it's sole "prophet" was as depraved, and dispicable as anyone who ever lived right up to the moment that he died.

He used qur'anic scripture to justify his engagement in some of the most barbaric behavior imaginable. His scrptures gave him permission to engage in incest, rape, pedophilia, assassinations, torture, mass murder, thievery, and terror. His life was an unbridled orgy of sex, power, and money.


Apart from your critique of the religion based on its lack of miracles and wonders, your chief complaint seems to be about the lifestyle of Muhammed.

*Don't you understand that they all married young girls back in those times ...it was less an orgy of sex than it was polygamy - which ancient Hebrews also practiced.

*I don't know of any evidence of extraordinary greed in the life of Muhammed; he had married a successful business woman, is all.

*The violence practiced by Muhammed towards his enemies was often reactive and defensive, and was no more brutal than that of Joshua in the taking of Canaan and other lands in that area. And I'm sure there is little need for me to rehearse the violent deeds of my own Christian forbearers.

Will you please stop painting ALL Muslims with such a broad brush, and making this effort to vilify Muhammed ?

It's not necessary !

I'm not sitting here trying to prettify the religion and conceal the Wahabbhist agenda.
 
Assuming their having 'drawn first blood',
wasn't there Someone who told us to forgive ...isn't that part of OUR religion ?
Especially when the offense was nearly fourteen hundred years ago ?

If the offense occurred 1400 years ago then yes, we should forgive. A stead stream of offenses over the past 1400 year period is an entirely different matter.

For instance, can you tell me the most famous quote by Ibn al-Araibi ?
It is a piece of wisdom worthy of John Paul II in its good will and spiritual maturity, and I will find it for you in case you haven't run across it in whatever diatribes you read against Islam.

No, I am not aware of it but anything that ibn al-Arabi wrote is irrelavent to the message of muhammad as he was not born until about 500 years after muhammad's death. Looking at the history of islam, it is also quite clear that whatever piece of wisdom al-Arabi wrote, did not sink into islam.

quote by Ibn al-Araibi Actually I thought Muhammed said he got it from the angel "Jabril" (Gabriel ?) and I thought the Lord was named Allah.
But what does all this show except that you are sure your faith is the true one and his isn't ?[/quote]

No, he claimed to have been given the revelations by a "nameless" lord. When he finally gets around to introducing this "lord",he identifies the Islamic god as Ar-Rahman. He is a dark and demented spirit, one who spends his days in hell. He deceives men, leads them astray, shackles them, dragging them to their doom. ar-rahman personally participates in hell’s torments, turning men on a spit, tearing them apart, forcing them to eat thorns, pitch, and boiling water. His paradise is a brothel. Its rivers flow with wine, and multiple virgins satiate the carnal desires of the faithful.

The most repetitive message in the qur'an is that if youu reject Muhammad, Muslims will kill you so that his god can roast you alive.

I'm guessing that you feel the same way about the Hindu faith and the Jewish faith, but that's not grounds to prosecute a war against them with no foreseeable end in sight.

Guessing is always a bad tactic. No. I don't feel the same way about the Hindu faith or the Jewish faith. But then neither of them was fabricated by a man who, when he was fifty, married a six-year-old child. Then he stole his son’s wife. After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them. He tortured his victims to make sure no treasure escaped his grasp. He committed mass murder, He used the sword to force Arabs into submission and used the slave trade to finance Islam. He was more interested in collecting girls and taxes than anything else. He ruled through fear. And his god condoned it all.

Anyone who believes islam is a religion of peace, doesn't know sheep sh*t from wild honey.

India is more poor than they, and India is primarily Hindu.

Are you going to try and convince me that Hindi is as violent as islam?

the Muslim nations were not a source of terror for us - at all - in modern times until we started messing around in the affairs of their countries.

You have that wrong Lilly. They have a history of being a danger to anyone they come into contact with and it doesn't matter if the people they encounter are of good will or bad. If they aren't muslim, they are infidels and must be subdued or killed. They didn't become a danger to us because we began to have influence in the middle east, they became a danger to us because we came into contact with them and were not muslims. The history speaks for itself.

Apart from your critique of the religion based on its lack of miracles and wonders, your chief complaint seems to be about the lifestyle of Muhammed.

The man was as evil as anyone who ever walked the earth. He fabricated a religion to justify his actions.

*Don't you understand that they all married young girls back in those times ...it was less an orgy of sex than it was polygamy - which ancient Hebrews also practiced.

Right.

*I don't know of any evidence of extraordinary greed in the life of Muhammed; he had married a successful business woman, is all.

Much more research is due on your part Lilly. How many passages would you like for me to provide that speak of fighting, and killing, and taking the spoils?

*The violence practiced by Muhammed towards his enemies was often reactive and defensive, and was no more brutal than that of Joshua in the taking of Canaan and other lands in that area. And I'm sure there is little need for me to rehearse the violent deeds of my own Christian forbearers.

Not true Lilly. Check your hem, your PC is showing and it isn't very attractive.

Will you please stop painting ALL Muslims with such a broad brush, and making this effort to vilify Muhammed ?

Villifying muhammed is effortless and people who follow a religion that was fabricated by a man as evil as he should be questioned.

Once again. Radical islam is islam.
 
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If the offense occurred 1400 years ago then yes, we should forgive. A stead stream of offenses over the past 1400 year period is an entirely different matter.

No worries then ! Because it has been by no means a steady stream of offences and I'll wait for you to demonstrate otherwise since you're making that claim.

No, I am not aware of it but anything that ibn al-Arabi wrote is irrelavent to the message of muhammad as he was not born until about 500 years after muhammad's death. Looking at the history of islam, it is also quite clear that whatever piece of wisdom al-Arabi wrote, did not sink into islam.


Your contention was that Islam=radical Islam, so it certainly IS relevant TO THIS DISCUSSION that I can point to multiple illustrations which gainsay your contention, Ibn al-Araibi being one of them.


No, he claimed to have been given the revelations by a "nameless" lord. When he finally gets around to introducing this "lord",he identifies the Islamic god as Ar-Rahman. He is a dark and demented spirit, one who spends his days in hell. He deceives men, leads them astray, shackles them, dragging them to their doom. ar-rahman personally participates in hell’s torments, turning men on a spit, tearing them apart, forcing them to eat thorns, pitch, and boiling water. His paradise is a brothel. Its rivers flow with wine, and multiple virgins satiate the carnal desires of the faithful.

The most repetitive message in the qur'an is that if youu reject Muhammad, Muslims will kill you so that his god can roast you alive.


1. So you don't like the image of God that he has.
Recalling that Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity, need I remind you of some of the writings of the Church Fathers?
Note the riotously descriptive passages of hell in them.

2. Incorrect: the most reiterated message in the Koran is about man's obligation to submit to God.

But then neither of them was fabricated by a man who, when he was fifty, married a six-year-old child. Then he stole his son’s wife. After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them. He tortured his victims to make sure no treasure escaped his grasp. He committed mass murder, He used the sword to force Arabs into submission and used the slave trade to finance Islam. He was more interested in collecting girls and taxes than anything else. He ruled through fear. And his god condoned it all.

Are you done yet, lathering up against Muhammed ? How on earth do you come by such vitriol against a man who has so little connection with you ?
I'm beginning to think you believe your own hyperbole.

*The youngest wife Muhammed obtained was nine, not six.

*I also believe you are mistaken about his converting any Arabs at swordpoint, but I'll have to check that.

I've never heard most of the other items in your inventory against him ...is it remotely possible that you could provide an unbiased citation for them ?


Are you going to try and convince me that Hindi is as violent as islam?

Hindi is the language, not the religion.
And please don't utilize the shabby tactic of distortion here. My comment was about economics - not violence - as anyone can see by reading my post above.
You had mentioned the unfortunate economic circumstances of people in Muslim countries and I pointed out that India is poorer than they ...even though India is NOT primarily Muslim.


You have that wrong Lilly. They have a history of being a danger to anyone they come into contact with and it doesn't matter if the people they encounter are of good will or bad. If they aren't muslim, they are infidels and must be subdued or killed.

Is that so ?
Then I suppose you are unaquainted with "The Golden Age of Spain" which is a common term denoting the most renowned era in Spanish history ...which also happened to be the most peaceful and untroubled time for the Jews in Spain - thanks to the generous amount of respect shown to them by the Muslims who ruled Spain then.

They didn't become a danger to us because we began to have influence in the middle east, they became a danger to us because we came into contact with them and were not muslims. The history speaks for itself.

Once again I challenge you to show me this history in which you claim there has been "a steady stream of offences" against non-Muslims by Muslims for 1400 years.
Quite plainly it cannot be found; except possibly in some revisionist history book used at your Bible college.


That's what you have to say in reply to my remark about polygamy among the Israelites?
Recall:
*Rachael AND Leah
*The wiveS of David
*Solomon's wiveS.
Yes,
it IS "right" that the Israelites were polygamous also.
Is that something you have overlooked in your studies ?

Much more research is due on your part Lilly. How many passages would you like for me to provide that speak of fighting, and killing, and taking the spoils?

Since you are offering, I would be satisfied with your simply providing evidence of that absurd claim that Muslims have steadily attacked non-Muslims for 1400 years.

Not true Lilly. Check your hem, your PC is showing and it isn't very attractive.

Mature of you to say that, palerider.

Since you seem concerned about what is attractive on an internet debate board, let me suggest that *rigorous institutional hatred of an entire population* might not function for you as much of a chick-magnet, either.


Villifying muhammed is effortless and people who follow a religion that was fabricated by a man as evil as he should be questioned.

Whatever you might think of Muhammed, it appears certain that you have dispensed with the 'questioning' of those who follow that religion, and gone right on to conviction and sentencing.

Once again. Radical islam is islam.

You keep saying that. I look forward to watching you substantiate it, in the face of significant evidence to the contrary.
 
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