Distress of the situations of middle east

I asked for direct quotes, so humour me and deliver because currently I am calling you a liar and interperting things incorrectly in accordance with how you want to hear them.

I gave you a direct quote, but it's not good enough for you?
ok. that's a funny game.
how about if you listen to the conversation I have with the new member and take notes.
why so quick to defend him and attack me? huh? that's interesting, isn't it?
 
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I gave you a direct quote, but it's not good enough for you? ?

Where have you given direct quotes where I asked you to?

You made the follow accussations:

no, he is following the theology to a t.
he's saying that non-muslims need to leave Iraq.

and the fault of the situation in Iraq is because of Americans.

when in fact there are thousands of incidents of Islamic violence that happens all over the world that is not related to America.

this poster is focusing on one issue and blaming the US. that's typical Islam for ya.

I asked for direct quotes to support these huge misinterpritations and cherry picking at non-existant connotations.

You gave me the following answer:

did you not read the post?
he asked us to tell our leaders to stop the war in Iraq.

how about we ask him to tell his leaders to stop attacks like those on the WTC, the 7/7 London bombings, the Madrid train bombings and 10000 other attacks since 911?
huh?

Are you so dense you believe that to be a direct quote, because your idea of direct quote must not be so direct as mine.

Please give a direct quote for the accussations you made in your post in this thread as requested to back up your positions.

ok. that's a funny game.
how about if you listen to the conversation I have with the new member and take notes.
why so quick to defend him and attack me? huh? that's interesting, isn't it?

I don't want to sit and take notes, I want you to justify you saying what you said. Why am I so quick to attack you??? Because I disagree with your position and not his - remember that word debate?? This isn't some happy clappy lets hold hands forum.
 
The so very extreme melancholy of which one cannot cope envelops my essence from day to day, that which is of extreme despair about situations. The destruction occurs repeatedly in which the grief of mothers, fathers, and siblings grows exponentially day after day. There have been so many bombs on each side, the resulting consequence of those being horrible ugliness such as body parts being torn from flesh and mothers crying over a deathed child. This must end, but the nations are not on the course which would end it were we to implement the sanity. We cannot stop the bombs by dropping more bombs. Both the sides keep to try that to accomplish, with not noticing that it doesn't work.

Please make your leaders stop the war in Iraq. Iraqis die. Americans die. We all have the same red blood. I am lucky that I in America am safe, but others of mine over there are not. Others of yours are also not.

This war only helps those of extremeness and should not have begun for it has helped them to heighten the fear from which their delusioned causes grow. And they will continue to grow until all sane ones realise that bombs do not stop bombs. They only heighten the terror and the pain and the grief. We should enough of that. I have spoken my mind. Peace.

We can not stop the war, while the US Invasion may have sparked it, the war is not the US vs Iraq...its Sunni vs Shia, vs Al Quida ,,The US is now just in the middle of it...if they would stop the killing, we could have our people back.
 
yes, it is only muslims who are calling Christians and Jews "pigs and dogs".

You are so delusional.

"I believe our motto should be after 9/11: Jihad monkey talks tough; jihad monkey takes the consequences. Sorry, I realize that's offensive. How about 'camel jockey'? What? Now what'd I say? Boy, you tent merchants sure are touchy. Grow up, would you?" - Ann Coulter

there are no homosexuals in Iran, the president told us all. because they are hung. the Christian group in the US doesn't seek out homosexuals to kill them, so extreme is not really a good word to use to describe this group compared to those who strap on vests and kill in an open market in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Now the Westboro Baptist Church isn't extreme! Will wonders never cease!

WBC doesn't need to kill people. That's not their point. Their point is to piss off as many people as possible by disrespecting the dead. Would they kill if they could escape retribution? Maybe. There are plenty of other groups who would. Some even do.

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9503/10years.html

no one says that all Muslims are evil, that's coming from your words.

You may say that you don't hate Muslims, you hate Islam. They might say they don't hate Americans, they hate America. One way or other what's the result? Dead Americans...dead Muslims.

what needs to stop are myths that Americans think that all Muslims are evil.

Some do.

what needs to stop is suicide bombing. agree?
what needs to stop is hate speeches in mosques in the US.

What needs to stop is hate speech, period.

People like you don't give them much of an incentive.
 
You are so delusional.

You may say that you don't hate Muslims, you hate Islam.

People like you don't give them much of an incentive.

wtf?
I am not delusional.
I do not hate. I do not hate muslims or Islam.
I'm not trying or should have to give people incentive to be peaceful.

but I'm really surprised that a moderator is name calling and making false accusations as such.
 
I am not delusional.

You said, and I quote, "it is only muslims who are calling Christians and Jews "pigs and dogs"." That's so far from the truth it's a delusional statement.

I do not hate. I do not hate muslims or Islam.

Then perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to your true feelings on the subject.

I'm not trying or should have to give people incentive to be peaceful.

But, with all that "you should be prepared!" talk, you are trying to give people incentive to be paranoid, is that it?

but I'm really surprised that a moderator is name calling and making false accusations as such.

I didn't call you a name. "Delusional" is an adjective. If I'd called you a "moron," or a "hate-monger," or a "brain-dead hack," that'd be name calling.

But I didn't.
 
You said, and I quote, "it is only muslims who are calling Christians and Jews "pigs and dogs"." That's so far from the truth it's a delusional statement.



Then perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to your true feelings on the subject.



But, with all that "you should be prepared!" talk, you are trying to give people incentive to be paranoid, is that it?



I didn't call you a name. "Delusional" is an adjective. If I'd called you a "moron," or a "hate-monger," or a "brain-dead hack," that'd be name calling.

But I didn't.

You have a promising career in the legal profession, imo.
 
But, with all that "you should be prepared!" talk, you are trying to give people incentive to be paranoid, is that it?

In every group there are screwballs, people on the outside that don't 'fit in' with the core of that group. They are part of it, but not really mainstream, not really what the group as a whole, stands for.

For example:
Nazi members. I know of at least one, that is a 'member' because their family were members, friends were members... but they don't stand for what the group as a whole stands for. In this case, the oddball members are the good guys.

Then there is the Oddball groups like Jim Jones and David Koresh where they were the oddballs of a larger group, and were way off in left field. In this case the Oddballs were the bad guys.

Now, I submit the best way to figure out if a group is a problem or not, is not to take a poll, and ask a random bunch what they believe, but rather to determine what their foundation is. What is their primary world view. What does their primary source of information say.

Now I copy directly from my own personal copy of the Qur'an.
Surah 9, Verse 4-5 page 114 in my book
"But the treaties are not dissolved with those pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in anything, nor aided any one against you. So, fulfil your engagements with them to the end of the term: for Allah loves the righteous. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagan wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war."

Surah 9, Verse 13-14 same page
"Will you not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first to assault you? Do you fear them? Nay, it is Allah whom you should more justly fear, if you believe! Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breast of believers"

Cost of leaving Islam
Now given the evidence in the video, are the Muslims following what their holy book says?

What is my point? Based on this evidence, do we have reason to believe the core of Islamic fundamentals is a danger? You make up your own mind.
 
In every group there are screwballs, people on the outside that don't 'fit in' with the core of that group. They are part of it, but not really mainstream, not really what the group as a whole, stands for.

It's true, not every member of a society believes in or even adheres to the norms and values of that society. That's why norms and values are modal (in the mathematical sense - the most commonly-held norms and values amongst the individuals comprising the society form the norms and values of that society).

For example:
Nazi members. I know of at least one, that is a 'member' because their family were members, friends were members... but they don't stand for what the group as a whole stands for. In this case, the oddball members are the good guys.

Then there is the Oddball groups like Jim Jones and David Koresh where they were the oddballs of a larger group, and were way off in left field. In this case the Oddballs were the bad guys.

"Good" is a relative concept, especially when discussing sociological concepts. Sociopathy is the only universally-held concept of "bad," and it's corresponding opposite is far from universally loved.

Deciding who the "good guys" are requires a predetermined sense of morality. All senses of morality are heavily influenced by society. So from our perspective, yes, the "oddballs" in a Nazi-style society would be the "good guys." Do you suppose the rest of their society would say the same?

Now, I submit the best way to figure out if a group is a problem or not, is not to take a poll, and ask a random bunch what they believe, but rather to determine what their foundation is. What is their primary world view. What does their primary source of information say.

Now I copy directly from my own personal copy of the Qur'an.
Surah 9, Verse 4-5 page 114 in my book
"But the treaties are not dissolved with those pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in anything, nor aided any one against you. So, fulfil your engagements with them to the end of the term: for Allah loves the righteous. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagan wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war."

Surah 9, Verse 13-14 same page
"Will you not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first to assault you? Do you fear them? Nay, it is Allah whom you should more justly fear, if you believe! Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breast of believers"

Such an examination, though, seems to rely on a singularity of interpretation. If you really are only looking at the foundation (in this case, the Qur'an), you also have to recognize that it is possible to draw from such a text a million different interpretations. There is no singular "truth" to interpreting religious text.

Cost of leaving Islam
Now given the evidence in the video, are the Muslims following what their holy book says?

They are following a certain interpretation of what their holy book says. Popular interpretations change over time. It happened for Christianity, even after a few hundred years in which Christianity was as regressive an institution as has ever existed.

But you're right, how many Muslims are interpreting their holy book is a problem today. The real question is, why are they looking at it like they are? And the million dollar question: Just what should we do about it?

What is my point? Based on this evidence, do we have reason to believe the core of Islamic fundamentals is a danger? You make up your own mind.

Anything that inspires ardent devotion or irrational belief can be dangerous.
 
You said, and I quote, "it is only muslims who are calling Christians and Jews "pigs and dogs"." That's so far from the truth it's a delusional statement.



Then perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to your true feelings on the subject.



But, with all that "you should be prepared!" talk, you are trying to give people incentive to be paranoid, is that it?



I didn't call you a name. "Delusional" is an adjective. If I'd called you a "moron," or a "hate-monger," or a "brain-dead hack," that'd be name calling.

But I didn't.
hehhe.
it's a fact that muslims and the Quran call jews and Christians "pigs and dogs"... has nothing to do with me personally... so maybe you can project hate and fear or paranoia where it really belongs which is the core base from which it comes, Islam.

start with Farfur, that would be a good place. a Mickey Mouse character on Lebanese TV show for kids, tells the children that the Jews are evil and must be killed. but oh no, the bad Jew kills Farfur and now there is a big Easter Bunny, no wait there is no Easter in Islam, so maybe it's just another cartoon character making fun of Western holidays, and the big Easter Bunny tells the little children that Jews and Christians are bad, and being a martyr for Islam is good.
now if you want some hate-mongering that's some good ol' hate-mongering right there, son.
 
"Good" is a relative concept, especially when discussing sociological concepts. Sociopathy is the only universally-held concept of "bad," and it's corresponding opposite is far from universally loved.

Deciding who the "good guys" are requires a predetermined sense of morality. All senses of morality are heavily influenced by society. So from our perspective, yes, the "oddballs" in a Nazi-style society would be the "good guys." Do you suppose the rest of their society would say the same?

Such an examination, though, seems to rely on a singularity of interpretation. If you really are only looking at the foundation (in this case, the Qur'an), you also have to recognize that it is possible to draw from such a text a million different interpretations. There is no singular "truth" to interpreting religious text.

They are following a certain interpretation of what their holy book says. Popular interpretations change over time. It happened for Christianity, even after a few hundred years in which Christianity was as regressive an institution as has ever existed.

But you're right, how many Muslims are interpreting their holy book is a problem today. The real question is, why are they looking at it like they are? And the million dollar question: Just what should we do about it?

Anything that inspires ardent devotion or irrational belief can be dangerous.

I disagree... Interpreting is simply a way for someone to change what words really mean, to what they want them to mean. When you read what is plainly written, you can have a singular truth.

For example, there is no other interpretation to "then fight and slay the pagan wherever you find them", than you are instructed to fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them. If someone says they are interpreting something, they mean they are lying about it.

There is singular truth to words. They mean what they mean in the context and time in which they are written. I would even suggest that "Truth Relativism" is the reason the US has all the problems and issues they have.

Further, I would actually suggest there is a predetermined sense of morality, that supersedes social norms.
 
I disagree... Interpreting is simply a way for someone to change what words really mean, to what they want them to mean. When you read what is plainly written, you can have a singular truth.

Literalism is a tool of fundamentalism. If you lay out all interpretations on a level plane and examine them logically from metaphorical and allegorical perspectives as well as literal, you'd see that that no one method of interpretation is superior to another. There may be one you identify more with, but that does not make it inherently superior to the others, since other individuals will identify with other interpretations. Modes of thinking, my friend. Not everyone is a straight-forward literalist; not everyone wants to be a straight-forward literalist. When it comes to religion I think that's a good thing - otherwise every religious person on the planet would be a fundamentalist.

For example, there is no other interpretation to "then fight and slay the pagan wherever you find them", than you are instructed to fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them. If someone says they are interpreting something, they mean they are lying about it.

I've delivered a personal interpretation of that passage somewhere else on this site (can't remember where - too many threads, too many posts). Think of the passage metaphorically and historically - the pagans were, at the time of the writing of the Qur'an, the people who were refusing to accept Islamic values, yes? Then to say "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them," taken in a metaphorical way, could easily be an impetus to fight and defeat one's own personal doubts, that small urge to reject, wherever it is found in one's mind.

Is this a custom-made interpretation? Yes. Does it make more sense to me then a literal interpretation? Depending on the context, yes. Personally, it does make more sense to me - I have little reason to hate anyone. If I had more, solid reasons to hate a person or a group of people, then maybe I'd want to look at that passage differently.

It might not make more sense to you. There are plenty of people out there who just aren't wired for the abstract, and that's okay. Still, every time you see a Christian who's repulsed by the idea of stoning adulterers to death, I'd challenge you not to assume that such a change in sentiments regarding "literal" interpretations of holy books is impossible in Islam as well.

There is singular truth to words. They mean what they mean in the context and time in which they are written. I would even suggest that "Truth Relativism" is the reason the US has all the problems and issues they have.

There are many issues raised by moral relativism, yes, however, there were plenty of strong issues that existed prior to its development. Moral relativism is, in my view, the only equitable way to deal with other cultures - after all, either we exercise moral relativism and tell them that we're okay with them doing things their way, or we extoll moral absolutes and tell them that we believe that their beliefs are "bad" or "wrong," based on our beliefs. Not only is that disingenuous, but it's ineffective. No one likes to be told that their beliefs are wrong.

Further, I would actually suggest there is a predetermined sense of morality, that supersedes social norms.

Present your evidence for this and we'll go from there.
 
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Literalism is a tool of fundamentalism. If you lay out all interpretations on a level plane and examine them logically from metaphorical and allegorical perspectives as well as literal, you'd see that that no one method of interpretation is superior to another. There may be one you identify more with, but that does not make it inherently superior to the others, since other individuals will identify with other interpretations. Modes of thinking, my friend. Not everyone is a straight-forward literalist; not everyone wants to be a straight-forward literalist. When it comes to religion I think that's a good thing - otherwise every religious person on the planet would be a fundamentalist.

Writing can not mean more to us, than it did to the ones who wrote it. Allegorical and metaphorical writing is stated as such by the writer. I can not just claim now that what you said was metaphoric, and what you really meant was (insert some strange theory here). Literalism, whether a tool or not, is in fact the truth. It is what it was meant to say. Modes of thinking is merely a way to change what is plainly written to mean what it does not say.

I've delivered a personal interpretation of that passage somewhere else on this site (can't remember where - too many threads, too many posts). Think of the passage metaphorically and historically - the pagans were, at the time of the writing of the Qur'an, the people who were refusing to accept Islamic values, yes? Then to say "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them," taken in a metaphorical way, could easily be an impetus to fight and defeat one's own personal doubts, that small urge to reject, wherever it is found in one's mind.

But is that what Mohammed meant when he wrote it? Was he speaking metaphorically or literally? When you read writings elsewhere in the Qur'an, it backs up that verse as been literal. Further, when you read his message to the pope in Rome, saying "there shall be no two faiths in Arabia" that indicates he meant literal. When you read how he had groups of infidels, people who refused to accept islam, brought to him by 20s, and had each ones head sliced off by his personal guards... I would suggest that he meant "slay the infidels" literally.

You can not change what type of writing given to you just to fit your own personal view. All writing must be taken the way the writer intended it to be.

Is this a custom-made interpretation? Yes. Does it make more sense to me then a literal interpretation? Depending on the context, yes. Personally, it does make more sense to me - I have little reason to hate anyone. If I had more, solid reasons to hate a person or a group of people, then maybe I'd want to look at that passage differently.

It might not make more sense to you. There are plenty of people out there who just aren't wired for the abstract, and that's okay. Still, every time you see a Christian who's repulsed by the idea of stoning adulterers to death, I'd challenge you not to assume that such a change in sentiments regarding "literal" interpretations of holy books is impossible in Islam as well.

It's not a matter of hate, but rather truth.

There are many issues raised by moral relativism, yes, however, there were plenty of strong issues that existed prior to its development. Moral relativism is, in my view, the only equitable way to deal with other cultures - after all, either we exercise moral relativism and tell them that we're okay with them doing things their way, or we extoll moral absolutes and tell them that we believe that their beliefs are "bad" or "wrong," based on our beliefs. Not only is that disingenuous, but it's ineffective. No one likes to be told that their beliefs are wrong. Present your evidence for this and we'll go from there.

In Canada, a father murdered his high school age daughter because she didn't wear a head covering at school. It was considered an "honor killing" because it, in their view, upheld the honor of Islam. How do you deal with this?

Go to a child daycare. Watch the children play. How does the 1 year old know that he should hide the toy he stole from another child behind his back when the women comes? How does the child know how to lie? Who tells that child not to say to their parent what they did?

Remember a few years back, a school teacher was sent to prison based on the words of children, and later was found they all lied completely about what happened. Why? Who told them to lie?

Many years ago I was in inner city schools and found that the kids had no concept that stealing was wrong. Taking things that didn't belong to them was the accepted norm... yet the moment someone swiped something of theirs, they went ballistic. Why? What made them believe that stealing was wrong when it happened to them?

I believe that God placed in every human some basic moral values. No one anywhere likes it when people lie. No one like it when their stuff is stolen. Now we can come to a point we willfully refuse to follow those morals, but even then, even when they see no problem with them breaking those morals themselves, they go ballistic when someone breaks those morals against them.

I am constantly amazed by people who lie, and then are outraged when someone lies to them. Or people who cheat on their wife, and then go nuts when they find out their wife cheated on them. And my favorite, people who steal stuff routinely, and go crazy when someone steals their car stereo.

I can't help but see that moral values external to society seem very obvious to me. One the things many American business men discovered the hard way while dealing with Asian Cultures, is that your word is truth. It's your bond. It's everything. If you say you are going to do thus and so, they expect you to do exactly, and precisely what you say you are going to do. A small slip, even not covering the tip at lunch if you said you would, results in canceled contracts.

These basic morals are visible in all age groups, and in all nations. Whether it's a toddler that tells their mommy you promised we could go to the park, to the Japanese businessman who expects you to pick up the tip at lunch when you say you will, to the high school boy that sees his girlfriend wander off with another guy, to the 45 year old wife who sees notes left by her husband written to a different women.
 
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