Don't ask, don't tell.

[Pandora]

The only thing I can think of to do about this is to reduce the stigma attached to being gay. Your son is upset because of the fear of implied "gayness", if he had been accosted in exactly the same manner by a woman he'd be alright, being hetero is ACCEPTABLE. It isn't gay people in general doing the damage to your son, it's his own culture that has taught him that being gay is horrific, evil, bad, sinful, and disgusting (look at the stuff Siho writes).

Sorry to say that incidents like this with your son are the kind of thing that sometimes lead to men who bash gays for revenge. Men with little self-esteem are so put-down by the enculturation that says if a man finds you attractive then you must be "gay" somehow that they have to keep proving their manhood to themselves by hurting others. It's twaddle, gay men like men, you son is probably just that: a man, and thus attractive. It's wrong for the guy at HD to hassle him though, just like it would be wrong for a guy at HD to hassle me (which has happened a number of times).

My son never has been like that, he doesnt care what other people are or are not but he did care of what people thought of him personally. I am not a guy so I can not say why it bothered him so, it was wierd when my female friends did what they did but it did not make me change the way I dress or act.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I never thought for a moment there was a worry about men being raped in the military by homosexuals. That is not my concern, my concern is for men and women.

I am female so Ill stick with female examples

If I were in the military with other women with this dont ask dont tell. Homosexuality would not come up or be a topic, I would not know if any girl in my unit were homosexual or not, so when its time to shower I would not be thinking about that.

now we have a new policy coming, lets say 3 girls in the unit let us know they are homosexual now that its legal to say they are. It would be hard for me to be in the shower with them because I would feel like I am showering with a guy. Not because would all the sudden seem manly, but because now I would know this person sees other women the way a man does.

It would not matter if that person was sexually attracted to you or not. I would not be able to shower in front of a man even if I knew he was not attracted to me or even liked me as a person. Men look at women differently than women look at women. A homosexual woman (it seems) would look at women the same way men do.

I wouldnt worry or fear about being raped by a woman or even being hit on but it doesnt seem any more reasonable to ask a women to take a shower in front of a homosexua woman as it would to ask the woman to take a shower in front of a man.

As a kid I got dressed in front of my mom, she sometimes came in the bathroom when I was taking a bath and it never bothered me. I would have flipped out had a dad come in the bathroom or one of my brothers, but not my sister, and that is not because they had a penis but because males look at females differently and it does not feel the same and its not a comfortable feeling to be in.

It seems to me that this is an enculturated feeling since it isn't found in many other cultures. Like the stigma attached to being hit on by a gay man, I think this whole issue can be dealt with best by ending the stigmatization of gay/bi/trans people. You may never be able to get past it yourself, I know a woman who hated Japanese people till the day she died because of losses in the 2nd World War, but your personal feelings should not be a bar to equality for others. I hated showering with the guys in school, but I put my head down and did it.

Assuming that you are white, why is your situation any different than that of a white person who was raised believing in segregation and who is confronted with LIVING shoulder to shoulder with black people in the Army? Those people had a difficult time too, but should blacks have been kept out of the Army because of it? Should they have been forced to use other facilities? What about in war time?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

My son never has been like that, he doesnt care what other people are or are not but he did care of what people thought of him personally. I am not a guy so I can not say why it bothered him so, it was wierd when my female friends did what they did but it did not make me change the way I dress or act.

Exactly! It's how others will see him that is the problem, we have to stop raising children with the idea that being gay is bad. I'm sorry for your son, I hope he has your strength of character and can recognize that this isn't about HIM, it's about a cultural prejudice that is just as stupid as hating people for the color of their skin.

 

[Pandora]

It seems to me that this is an enculturated feeling since it isn't found in many other cultures. Like the stigma attached to being hit on by a gay man, I think this whole issue can be dealt with best by ending the stigmatization of gay/bi/trans people. You may never be able to get past it yourself, I know a woman who hated Japanese people till the day she died because of losses in the 2nd World War, but your personal feelings should not be a bar to equality for others. I hated showering with the guys in school, but I put my head down and did it.

Assuming that you are white, why is your situation any different than that of a white person who was raised believing in segregation and who is confronted with LIVING shoulder to shoulder with black people in the Army? Those people had a difficult time too, but should blacks have been kept out of the Army because of it? Should they have been forced to use other facilities? What about in war time?

I am Native American and I have never had a problem with black people. Growing up there were two ethnic families on the block, us and a black family. I spent more time in their yard than I did my own. I really liked the grandfather who told me stories of the olden days.

I dont have a problem with homosexual people either. I used to favor a bar down town because it was a homosexual bar. An all male bar. There was an all female homosexual bar a mile down the road I did not want to go to. I liked the all male bar because no matter how much I drank or how wasted I got I never worried about anything bad happening to me, the men there were like drinking with the girls and they took care of me if I got so drunk I could not take care of myself. Plus the drinks were strong, good, cheap, and they n ever cut you off

but I never went to the all female homosexual bar because it would have been more like going to a bar of all men. Not a good choice for someone who wanted to drink like I was doing.

 

[Pandora]

so we still have not resolved the problem for people like me who would not feel comfortable showering with a man or a woman who saw other women as men generally do.

this is what is bothering me about obama, he decides he is going to change policy before he has figured out how to fix the problems the old rules fixed. I am perfectly ok with changing dont ask dont tell but not till they resolve the problems it will create.

just like I am perfectly ok with closing gitmo but not till you have figured out what you will do with the guys currently there.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

The question is very easily resolved.

You just tell the soldiers that they will shower together and that inappropriate behaviour will not be tolerated.

The army is run on the obeying of orders.

There would undoubtedly be a short period of whingeing from the ranks but it would go away very quickly.

If you think about it, saying 'no gays in these showers' is very similar to saying 'no coloureds in this restaurant'.

Lots of people didn't want to see that changed either.

Are you one of them?

 

[The Scotsman]

............. I was polite about it but we never were friends again. Not because I did anything mean to her but I think she felt wierd being around me after I said please move your hand.

..............another friend just flat out asked me and I said no and was polite about it but our friendship also faded after that and the third girl was simular to the second.

......you've just answered an important question. inter-personal relationships in combat theaters are hard enough without adding to that the strain of jilted love or mixing signals and getting it totally wrong.

Regards thick skins..... body armour is service issue.........

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

But women fight alongside men

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I am Native American and I have never had a problem with black people. Growing up there were two ethnic families on the block, us and a black family. I spent more time in their yard than I did my own. I really liked the grandfather who told me stories of the olden days.

I dont have a problem with homosexual people either. I used to favor a bar down town because it was a homosexual bar. An all male bar. There was an all female homosexual bar a mile down the road I did not want to go to. I liked the all male bar because no matter how much I drank or how wasted I got I never worried about anything bad happening to me, the men there were like drinking with the girls and they took care of me if I got so drunk I could not take care of myself. Plus the drinks were strong, good, cheap, and they n ever cut you off

but I never went to the all female homosexual bar because it would have been more like going to a bar of all men. Not a good choice for someone who wanted to drink like I was doing.

Sounds like a fear reaction to me, gays you can trust, but lesbians might take advantage of you--or at least want to--and that gives you the jim-jams.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Men routinely want to take advantage of women, leer at them etc but women are allowed in the army.

Sounds like prejudice dressed up as shower fever

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

so we still have not resolved the problem for people like me who would not feel comfortable showering with a man or a woman who saw other women as men generally do.

this is what is bothering me about obama, he decides he is going to change policy before he has figured out how to fix the problems the old rules fixed. I am perfectly ok with changing dont ask dont tell but not till they resolve the problems it will create.

just like I am perfectly ok with closing gitmo but not till you have figured out what you will do with the guys currently there.

There is no way for the government to fix people's emotional reactions. Just like people who are uncomfortable with people of another race, I think that they are just going to have to get over it. If no one is doing anything to you, and it's only your fear/discomfort/whatever because you THINK you know what they are thinking when they look at you, then it's your problem. People join nudist colonies and learn to function with both genders au natural so it's obviously a personal issue with you.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The question is very easily resolved.

You just tell the soldiers that they will shower together and that inappropriate behaviour will not be tolerated.

The army is run on the obeying of orders.

There would undoubtedly be a short period of whingeing from the ranks but it would go away very quickly.

If you think about it, saying 'no gays in these showers' is very similar to saying 'no coloureds in this restaurant'.
Lots of people didn't want to see that changed either.

Harsh, but true.

 

[The Scotsman]

But women fight alongside men

....no they don't. They may find themselves in combat but they are not combat infanty.

 

[Pandora]

......you've just answered an important question. inter-personal relationships in combat theaters are hard enough without adding to that the strain of jilted love or mixing signals and getting it totally wrong.

Regards thick skins..... body armour is service issue.........

Body armour would make good thick skin

 

[Dr.Who]

I have no problem with gays openly in the military.

now they just need to figure out what to do about the showers and stuff.

Should all the soldiers, male, female, gay, TS, and straight, shower together? then we just tell them all to stop being so concerned about it and that they should get over their fear reactions to being ogled by people who find them sexually attractive.

Or we have four different sleeping/showering arrangements.

What would you do Mare?