Fox News defending Craig's "wide-stance" argument

USMC the Almighty

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Ok I give up ... having consesual sex ..having an affair like Bill Clinton did is like publicly beheading a baby.

But cruising public toilets to have sex with men ...no ..that's normal ..and Craig is a victim!! :rolleyes:

I can't figure out if you're really that stupid or you are just intentionally misrepresenting what I'm saying. No, absolutely not, do I consider what Craig did acceptable. He deserves to be punished and I am glad that he is no longer in office.

Likewise, I do not approve of the fact that the most President of the United States had someone under his desk in the oval office.

Like I said .... the right built their party on a foundation of hypocrisy!!

And this is where you show how partisan you really are. Hypocrisy is alive and well on both sides of the aisle. At least the conservative philosophy is free of hypocrisy and contradictions. Can't say the same about the lefties.
 
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top gun

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USMC the Almighty;21240]

And this is where you show how partisan you really are. Hypocrisy is alive and well on both sides of the aisle. At least the conservative philosophy is free of hypocrisy and contradictions. Can't say the same about the lefties.

I'm only responding to this last couple lines because I think you have a right to see things however you want. And there is of course partisanship all around. That said...

I don't see how anyone can say, "At least the conservative philosophy is free of hypocrisy and contradictions. Can't say the same about the lefties."

I mean seriously! I'm pretty darn sure if a Democrat was caught soliciting gay stall sex in a public airport restroom he'd be just as condemned by the Dems.

Now there is some difference. If the guy had just came out and said "I'm gay" without the restroom angle... absolutely the Democrats would have been more understanding than the pubbies. Same if Craig had just been found to have a girlfriend... again Democrats probably would have been more forgiving.

But again that's not what happened. The fact that so many Republicans have gotten themselves into moral, ethical and legal problems in the past 4 years, and in some cases the pubbies were quick to get rid of them is no real badge of honor for their Party... is it? I mean the fundamental fact is their Party's misdeeds have been on a huge upswing. I don't see that as any kind of a good thing for them.
 

USMC the Almighty

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I'm only responding to this last couple lines because I think you have a right to see things however you want. And there is of course partisanship all around. That said...

I don't see how anyone can say, "At least the conservative philosophy is free of hypocrisy and contradictions. Can't say the same about the lefties."

I mean seriously! I'm pretty darn sure if a Democrat was caught soliciting gay stall sex in a public airport restroom he'd be just as condemned by the Dems.

Now there is some difference. If the guy had just came out and said "I'm gay" without the restroom angle... absolutely the Democrats would have been more understanding than the pubbies. Same if Craig had just been found to have a girlfriend... again Democrats probably would have been more forgiving.

But again that's not what happened. The fact that so many Republicans have gotten themselves into moral, ethical and legal problems in the past 4 years, and in some cases the pubbies were quick to get rid of them is no real badge of honor for their Party... is it? I mean the fundamental fact is their Party's misdeeds have been on a huge upswing. I don't see that as any kind of a good thing for them.

...and none of this is relevant to the my bolded statement that you quoted. I said that conservative philosophy was purer than the "liberal" one. I never indicated anywhere that Republican politicians are somehow less fallible than Democrats. The Dems are probably just better at hiding their faults from the press.
 

top gun

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...and none of this is relevant to the my bolded statement that you quoted. I said that conservative philosophy was purer than the "liberal" one. I never indicated anywhere that Republican politicians are somehow less fallible than Democrats. The Dems are probably just better at hiding their faults from the press.

Well couldn't anyone say the exact same thing about what you're saying right here? That's all a matter of opinion in itself. The other side (that would include myself) believes that the progressive philosophy is not only more pure but it's also actually for real.

In other words anyone can preach from the mountain top. Any group can claim they are the ones holding the moral high-ground. But actions not rhetoric define who is who.

As a group we can swear on a stack of Bibles that... we're all ministers... while we really are pick pockets working the congregation. What are we really? What we say or what we do?
 

USMC the Almighty

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Well couldn't anyone say the exact same thing about what you're saying right here? That's all a matter of opinion in itself. The other side (that would include myself) believes that the progressive philosophy is not only more pure but it's also actually for real.

In other words anyone can preach from the mountain top. Any group can claim they are the ones holding the moral high-ground. But actions not rhetoric define who is who.

As a group we can swear on a stack of Bibles that... we're all ministers... while we really are pick pockets working the congregation. What are we really? What we say or what we do?

You're missing my point. You're calling Republican politicians hypocritical. And I'll agree that some are -- just as many Democrats are. But I'm saying that the "progressive" philosophy itself is hypocritical. For instance, how could you possibly preach about liberty while simultaneously calling for some wealthy individuals (those insufferable bastards) to turn over half of everyone thing they own to the government in a socialistic fashion? How could you oppose killing convicted rapists and killers but support the murder of innocent unborns? How could you possibly decry outsourcing while calling for higher taxes on corporations and the wealthy in the name of "environmentalism"?

I'll continue if you wish.
 

berreal

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For instance, how could you possibly preach about liberty while simultaneously calling for some wealthy individuals (those insufferable bastards) to turn over half of everyone thing they own to the government in a socialistic fashion?

Understanding that nobody ever asked the wealthy to turn over half their wages to the government.
Understanding that your warped sense of concern is steeped in ideology because you people are never wealthy.
Understanding that we have the wealthiest people in the world ..who amassed this wealth non-stop regardless of democratic or republican leadership.
And understanding the gap between rich and the poor/middle class just keeps growing ...makes it sad that you somehow find this as some cause to champion.

But mostly understanding that the people in this country with real wealth ... would laugh at the fact that morons like you still think despite their advantage ... .. you somehow find it necessary to fight for them!!!

What a joke!

How does it feel bud... to realize that they bent your mind to the point that you get up each day thinking of what you need to do to help say ... Bill Gates or Warren Buffet lives easier?

I'd love to throw you into some 3rd world country where they don't pay taxes and see how you like it!

Hypocrite to the end. You'd cry and wail other forking over an extra $300 a year in taxes ..... and at the same time want 100,000 troops in Iraq for over 6 years!!

Whats worse is you'd even cry for a guy making $Billions forking over an extra $200K to fund a war he'd never participate in!!



Amazing!!


How could you oppose killing convicted rapists and killers but support the murder of innocent unborns?


Its simple ...real simple!! Democrats think the individual can make that personal decision! Democrats feel that personal responsibility applies here and not government intrusion.

You'd cry for smaller government, and less government intrusion and then back a president who grew the government! What must the GOVERNMENT decide for us next?


How could you possibly decry outsourcing while calling for higher taxes on corporations and the wealthy in the name of "environmentalism"?

Its just amazing how you morons pick the interest of those with the most money and power to defend? We have sooo many corporations here with sattelite offices in Grand Cayman skirting the tax laws ... and no outrage there ..huh? You actually sound like some chicken-hawk 15 year old its amazing the level of your naievity!!

The corporations with their billions practically are our government ..irrespective of democrats or republicans ...and here you are saying ...no ..noo corporations are victims ...they need ....more advantage!!

You want rich people and now corporations paying no taxes ...and at the same time you want to keep our troops in Iraq for over 6 years ...your just plain stupid pal!!
 

USMC the Almighty

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Understanding that nobody ever asked the wealthy to turn over half their wages to the government.
Understanding that your warped sense of concern is steeped in ideology because you people are never wealthy.
Understanding that we have the wealthiest people in the world ..who amassed this wealth non-stop regardless of democratic or republican leadership.
And understanding the gap between rich and the poor/middle class just keeps growing ...makes it sad that you somehow find this as some cause to champion.

But mostly understanding that the people in this country with real wealth ... would laugh at the fact that morons like you still think despite their advantage ... .. you somehow find it necessary to fight for them!!!

What a joke!

How does it feel bud... to realize that they bent your mind to the point that you get up each day thinking of what you need to do to help say ... Bill Gates or Warren Buffet lives easier?

I'd love to throw you into some 3rd world country where they don't pay taxes and see how you like it!

Hypocrite to the end. You'd cry and wail other forking over an extra $300 a year in taxes ..... and at the same time want 100,000 troops in Iraq for over 6 years!!

Whats worse is you'd even cry for a guy making $Billions forking over an extra $200K to fund a war he'd never participate in!!

Income taxes for the wealthy are around 45%. You think this is right? You think the Founding Fathers envisioned a country where people would be forced to turn over nearly half of what they earn to the government? And then when they die and try to pass it on to their kids the government takes a large sum of that?

You support this? It has nothing to do with my feelings for the wealthy. It's about Founders' vision of individual liberty.

Its simple ...real simple!! Democrats think the individual can make that personal decision! Democrats feel that personal responsibility applies here and not government intrusion.

You'd cry for smaller government, and less government intrusion and then back a president who grew the government! What must the GOVERNMENT decide for us next?

I support government interventions when it's to protect an innocent from being killed. You support intervention when it's to protect and convicted rapist or killer from being killed.

Its just amazing how you morons pick the interest of those with the most money and power to defend? We have sooo many corporations here with sattelite offices in Grand Cayman skirting the tax laws ... and no outrage there ..huh? You actually sound like some chicken-hawk 15 year old its amazing the level of your naievity!!

The corporations with their billions practically are our government ..irrespective of democrats or republicans ...and here you are saying ...no ..noo corporations are victims ...they need ....more advantage!!

You want rich people and now corporations paying no taxes ...and at the same time you want to keep our troops in Iraq for over 6 years ...your just plain stupid pal!!

You can't really be this stupid. With the United States' ridiculous tax laws on corporations we are driving their businesses out of the country. But if the U.S. were to lose some of the absurd taxes we punish companies with and create a country that is a tax haven to entrepeneurs and businesses, then we are encouraging job growth, productivity, and stimulating our economy. And that's the whole idea. You want to encourage entrepeneurship and productivity, not force people to take it out of the country.
 

berreal

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Income taxes for the wealthy are around 45%. You think this is right? You think the Founding Fathers envisioned a country where people would be forced to turn over nearly half of what they earn to the government? And then when they die and try to pass it on to their kids the government takes a large sum of that?

You support this? It has nothing to do with my feelings for the wealthy. It's about Founders' vision of individual liberty.

Your sooo freaking naive its unreal!! Its 45% in theory MORON.... but the wealthy (unlike you) don't sit at night scouring over their taxes to file in April. They can employ people to help them navigate through the myriad of loop holes ..and these people are at their beck-and-call all year! Their wealth affords them this pro-active stance.

But the proof is so obvious to see. If this was sooo depressing ..if it was such a burden ..why do they stay here? They can always leave ..and make the money in a less taxing environment!! But they stay right here and amass this wealth through rain and shine! And while they do this ...while the gap between their income and the average middle calss worker widens (under this so called burdensome taxes) they have lap-dogs like you fighting for them!!


Its as if the way your trained ...if you have a dollor to spare and Bill Gates stand besides a family in NO who just lost their home ...you would prefer to give it to Bill Gates!! Thats the way your trained. These people got you trained to somehow see the wealthy as victims ..un real!!

Nobody is taking away their liberty ...they are free to leave the country ...at will! And they are free to stay here .... and hide their money over-seas!!
But they stay because they know all too well that here is where their chances of amassing the wealth is the highest in the world!!

The government you villify one day ...and run to the next (when it suits you) is what seperates the US from the rest of the world. True it may be some what in-efficient ..but in the end its the glue that holds us together.

Just imagine if Africa for example was to adopt a unifying system like we do? With such resources I predict in 20 years they would be the mightiest nation on earth ...ever!!

Its what the European nations are trying to model themselves after (though I think they'll fail due to language and culture differences).




You can't really be this stupid. With the United States' ridiculous tax laws on corporations we are driving their businesses out of the country. But if the U.S. were to lose some of the absurd taxes we punish companies with and create a country that is a tax haven to entrepeneurs and businesses, then we are encouraging job growth, productivity, and stimulating our economy. And that's the whole idea. You want to encourage entrepeneurship and productivity, not force people to take it out of the country.


You need to be re-programmed!! The corporations want to have their cake and eat it too! That is ...build their widget abroad ..and sell it to the country with greatest consumer resource ...the US!! Thats what they want to do MORON!! But guess what? If the jobs leave ...guess what happens to that purchasing power..eventually?? CEO's don't give a crap about America or Americans ..all they care about is making the next earnings projections ..period!! Use to be these jobs were thought of as only affecting low skilled worker ...but no longer! So as this practice escalates ..its the engineer, accountant etc jobs that will be on the chopping block!!

The fact is the CEO's are doing what they are supposed to do ..make money for the company ...but they do so with absolutely no concern for America or Americans. The CEO's job isn't to stimulate the economy .idiot!! Their job isn't to create jobs for anybody!! Thats just a means to an end!

The CEO's job is to make money for the investor!!

And as the race to the bottom continues ..they do so eventually at their own demise! This is where the government need to step in.

If Al Queda was to make toys or shoes and sell to us cheap ...people in America will buy it!! Wouldn't you want the government to step in?

But there is more. Corporations must grow in order to survive...because even if the stock hits $400 per share for example ..investors will buy it expecting some type of ROI. And to that end companies must not just grow .....they must grow at a growing rate.
To that end ...if corporate taxes were lowered (as our infrastucture crumble ..including the millitary under the loss of revenue) much of that windfall will find its way into investors pockets. And after the dust settles ..with the lower tax burden ..the very same corporations will still be tasked by investors to grow at a growing rate ..and soon we are right back where we started. With them and you telling us they need cheaper labor!!!




Again ...you keep up the stupid rant about taxes (cause they told you to) and yet back a president who bloated the government!! Why the hell didn't you demand that bush chop the tax rate even more for corporations!! In fact why not demand bush eliminate taxes!! I know this age old smoke-and mirrors all too well. Having lived in a republican controlled local district where every year the morons all run on the same .."I'm here to lower taxes" talking point! And what happens ..they come in and taxes go up!!


And I have to remind you ...MORON ...it cost money to deploy 100,000 troops abroad fighting a war for 6 years!!

In the end ...with an organized group with $Billions at their disposal ...1,000's of lobbyist in the ear of every congress-man (democrat and republican) and an electoral system thats practically dependent on these corporations ....with all this arsenal at their disposal ...THEY DON'T NEED ANY MORE ADVANTAGE!!
 

9sublime

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Calling USMC a moron repeatedly does nothing but undermine your argument. Theres also a rule on personal attacks. Theres no need to keep insulting him whilst you prove your point. Stop it.
 

top gun

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You're missing my point. You're calling Republican politicians hypocritical. And I'll agree that some are -- just as many Democrats are. But I'm saying that the "progressive" philosophy itself is hypocritical. For instance, how could you possibly preach about liberty while simultaneously calling for some wealthy individuals (those insufferable bastards) to turn over half of everyone thing they own to the government in a socialistic fashion? How could you oppose killing convicted rapists and killers but support the murder of innocent unborns? How could you possibly decry outsourcing while calling for higher taxes on corporations and the wealthy in the name of "environmentalism"?

I'll continue if you wish.

Well that's not really hard to do at all. It's not a matter of a hypocritical philosophy it's a matter of making hard decisions with a different perspective.

On a Federal tax system... that was hardly a Democrat only initiative. And the fact is George Bush a Republican has grown government much MORE than Clinton a Democrat ever did... and has spent more than any other president in history. Republicans seem to believe that the fair & just thing to do isn't to pay while you go... they believe in pushing huge debt off on their and everyone else's children. So there is absolutely no high ground for the pubbies here.

On the death penalty many, not all, progressives oppose it because they see everyday people being released due to DNA evidence and such that quite possibly could have been put to death by mistake. That seems like a reasonable concern to me.

On abortion you have a complex issue that if you go all the way against it would outlaw even the Birth Control Pill because the egg is already fertilized and the pill won't let it implant. Does 2 cells have the same personhood & standing as a living breathing woman? Should the government FORCE a woman to be a baby incubator against her will. I think not. I agree with the United States Supreme Court... until viability (able to live outside the womb on it's own) the woman's rights have precedent giving her choice either way.

On the environment just as corporations once built up huge monopolies that hurt Americans and American workers, companies that spoil the environment that we all have to live in are not doing the right thing. As such there are instances where corporations have to be mandated to clean up their own mess. I mean if they're making huge profits while soiling the environment for everyone else I don't see forcing them to clean up their act as a bad thing. Progressives aren't big on corporate welfare. It seems more fair that the mom & pop grocery store shouldn't have to pay to clean up PPG or Exxon/Mobil's mess to us.

See I can go on too... both philosophies have merits and downsides. I just personally see more good being done on one side and you another. :)
 

USMC the Almighty

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Your sooo freaking naive its unreal!! Its 45% in theory MORON.... but the wealthy (unlike you) don't sit at night scouring over their taxes to file in April. They can employ people to help them navigate through the myriad of loop holes ..and these people are at their beck-and-call all year! Their wealth affords them this pro-active stance.

But the proof is so obvious to see. If this was sooo depressing ..if it was such a burden ..why do they stay here? They can always leave ..and make the money in a less taxing environment!! But they stay right here and amass this wealth through rain and shine! And while they do this ...while the gap between their income and the average middle calss worker widens (under this so called burdensome taxes) they have lap-dogs like you fighting for them!!

Why do they stay here? Because it's the best country in the world to live in. But they choose to move their money to offshore accounts where it's not subject to ridiculous taxes and regulation.

Its as if the way your trained ...if you have a dollor to spare and Bill Gates stand besides a family in NO who just lost their home ...you would prefer to give it to Bill Gates!! Thats the way your trained. These people got you trained to somehow see the wealthy as victims ..un real!!

Nobody is taking away their liberty ...they are free to leave the country ...at will! And they are free to stay here .... and hide their money over-seas!!
But they stay because they know all too well that here is where their chances of amassing the wealth is the highest in the world!!

This is a terrible argument, one that I hear the right make quite often about anti-American liberals: "well if they hate the country so much why don't they just leave".

The government you villify one day ...and run to the next (when it suits you) is what seperates the US from the rest of the world. True it may be some what in-efficient ..but in the end its the glue that holds us together.

Just imagine if Africa for example was to adopt a unifying system like we do? With such resources I predict in 20 years they would be the mightiest nation on earth ...ever!!

Its what the European nations are trying to model themselves after (though I think they'll fail due to language and culture differences).

You need to be re-programmed!! The corporations want to have their cake and eat it too! That is ...build their widget abroad ..and sell it to the country with greatest consumer resource ...the US!! Thats what they want to do MORON!! But guess what? If the jobs leave ...guess what happens to that purchasing power..eventually?? CEO's don't give a crap about America or Americans ..all they care about is making the next earnings projections ..period!! Use to be these jobs were thought of as only affecting low skilled worker ...but no longer! So as this practice escalates ..its the engineer, accountant etc jobs that will be on the chopping block!!

The fact is the CEO's are doing what they are supposed to do ..make money for the company ...but they do so with absolutely no concern for America or Americans. The CEO's job isn't to stimulate the economy .idiot!! Their job isn't to create jobs for anybody!! Thats just a means to an end!

The CEO's job is to make money for the investor!!

Obviously, economics is not your strong point but entrepeneurship, job creation, business, and productivity (despite the incentives to do so) is good for the economy.

And as the race to the bottom continues ..they do so eventually at their own demise! This is where the government need to step in.

If Al Queda was to make toys or shoes and sell to us cheap ...people in America will buy it!! Wouldn't you want the government to step in?

But there is more. Corporations must grow in order to survive...because even if the stock hits $400 per share for example ..investors will buy it expecting some type of ROI. And to that end companies must not just grow .....they must grow at a growing rate.
To that end ...if corporate taxes were lowered (as our infrastucture crumble ..including the millitary under the loss of revenue) much of that windfall will find its way into investors pockets. And after the dust settles ..with the lower tax burden ..the very same corporations will still be tasked by investors to grow at a growing rate ..and soon we are right back where we started. With them and you telling us they need cheaper labor!!!

Again ...you keep up the stupid rant about taxes (cause they told you to) and yet back a president who bloated the government!! Why the hell didn't you demand that bush chop the tax rate even more for corporations!! In fact why not demand bush eliminate taxes!! I know this age old smoke-and mirrors all too well. Having lived in a republican controlled local district where every year the morons all run on the same .."I'm here to lower taxes" talking point! And what happens ..they come in and taxes go up!!

My opinion on taxes stems from my belief in the Founders' vision and individual liberty. I believe that people should keep the lion's share of what they earn, only paying a small federal tax for the military and infrastructure. Everything else should be left up to the local and state governments. It's a noble concept known as "federalism".

And I have to remind you ...MORON ...it cost money to deploy 100,000 troops abroad fighting a war for 6 years!!

What does this have to do with anything?

In the end ...with an organized group with $Billions at their disposal ...1,000's of lobbyist in the ear of every congress-man (democrat and republican) and an electoral system thats practically dependent on these corporations ....with all this arsenal at their disposal ...THEY DON'T NEED ANY MORE ADVANTAGE!!

You just don't get it do you? Making the U.S. a tax haven instead of its current state of a tax nightmare would greatly benefit the American economy. Additionally, I don't believe that the federal government has the right to steal other people's money unless there is a proper justification for it.
 

USMC the Almighty

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Well that's not really hard to do at all. It's not a matter of a hypocritical philosophy it's a matter of making hard decisions with a different perspective.

On a Federal tax system... that was hardly a Democrat only initiative. And the fact is George Bush a Republican has grown government much MORE than Clinton a Democrat ever did... and has spent more than any other president in history. Republicans seem to believe that the fair & just thing to do isn't to pay while you go... they believe in pushing huge debt off on their and everyone else's children. So there is absolutely no high ground for the pubbies here.

You indicate that you're going to talk about the conservative philosophy and then go on talking about President Bush's hypocrisy. I agree with you -- he has betrayed the conservative philosophy of small government, low taxes, low spending, and individual liberty.

On the death penalty many, not all, progressives oppose it because they see everyday people being released due to DNA evidence and such that quite possibly could have been put to death by mistake. That seems like a reasonable concern to me.

A reasonable concern indeed, but what if DNA evidence were made a requirement to put killers on death row? Would you support it then?

On abortion you have a complex issue that if you go all the way against it would outlaw even the Birth Control Pill because the egg is already fertilized and the pill won't let it implant. Does 2 cells have the same personhood & standing as a living breathing woman? Should the government FORCE a woman to be a baby incubator against her will. I think not. I agree with the United States Supreme Court... until viability (able to live outside the womb on it's own) the woman's rights have precedent giving her choice either way.

Not really a big fan of debating abortion. Just find it hypocritical that killing a innocent unborn is okay, but killing a murderer is particularly egregious.

On the environment just as corporations once built up huge monopolies that hurt Americans and American workers, companies that spoil the environment that we all have to live in are not doing the right thing. As such there are instances where corporations have to be mandated to clean up their own mess. I mean if they're making huge profits while soiling the environment for everyone else I don't see forcing them to clean up their act as a bad thing. Progressives aren't big on corporate welfare. It seems more fair that the mom & pop grocery store shouldn't have to pay to clean up PPG or Exxon/Mobil's mess to us.

What does this have to do with anything?

See I can go on too... both philosophies have merits and downsides. I just personally see more good being done on one side and you another. :)

That's fair. I believe in a philosophy of small government, personal responsibility, individual liberty, states' rights, low taxes, strong defense, and secure borders.

I could give you my perception of the so-called "liberal" or "progressive" philosophy but I'm sure you wouldn't approve so I'll let you lay it out for me.
 

vyo476

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Your sooo freaking naive its unreal!! Its 45% in theory MORON.... but the wealthy (unlike you) don't sit at night scouring over their taxes to file in April. They can employ people to help them navigate through the myriad of loop holes ..and these people are at their beck-and-call all year! Their wealth affords them this pro-active stance.

Yes, there are plenty of loopholes in tax laws. But, legally speaking, in the end the law still states that US citizens with the highest incomes are supposed to pay 45% of that income in taxes.

Ironically I can see a kind of consensus between your position and USMC's; while you want to quit giving the wealthy tax breaks, he thinks they shouldn't have to pay so large a slice of the pie bottom-line. If those loopholes you deplore so much are viewed as de facto tax breaks, then the elimination of those would probably make it possible to lower the baseline percentage our wealthiest citizens have to pay.

But the proof is so obvious to see. If this was sooo depressing ..if it was such a burden ..why do they stay here? They can always leave ..and make the money in a less taxing environment!! But they stay right here and amass this wealth through rain and shine! And while they do this ...while the gap between their income and the average middle calss worker widens (under this so called burdensome taxes) they have lap-dogs like you fighting for them!!

They stay for the same reasons most American citizens aren't cutting and running for Europe - safety and ideology.

Its as if the way your trained ...if you have a dollor to spare and Bill Gates stand besides a family in NO who just lost their home ...you would prefer to give it to Bill Gates!! Thats the way your trained. These people got you trained to somehow see the wealthy as victims ..un real!!

Obfuscation.

It goes more like this: You see a Bill Gates standing next to a family that's just lost their home and you need to take a dollar from one side or the other...then you step back and ask yourself if you really need that dollar - or if you have any right to that dollar.

Nobody is taking away their liberty ...they are free to leave the country ...at will! And they are free to stay here .... and hide their money over-seas!!
But they stay because they know all too well that here is where their chances of amassing the wealth is the highest in the world!!

You can only play the "if you don't like things here, just leave" card when people talk about how the situation is intolerable - as in, the present situation is so bad they can't abide it enough to get politically involved and try to change it.

Let's say the government sponsored a law that required every citizen to kill children. I would not be able to follow that law long enough to go out and vote for people who'd get it repealed, so I'd be on the next bus to Canada.

Now let's say the government sponsored a law that required every citizen to turn over fifty percent of their total income to the government every year. I wouldn't like such a law, but I could deal with it long enough to vote for people who would get it repealed.

The government you villify one day ...and run to the next (when it suits you) is what seperates the US from the rest of the world. True it may be some what in-efficient ..but in the end its the glue that holds us together.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Tell me you don't actually believe this.

So, the glue that holds us together is administered by George W. Bush. That's some glue you got there.
Just imagine if Africa for example was to adopt a unifying system like we do? With such resources I predict in 20 years they would be the mightiest nation on earth ...ever!!

Its what the European nations are trying to model themselves after (though I think they'll fail due to language and culture differences).

And...you're making very little sense.

You need to be re-programmed!! The corporations want to have their cake and eat it too! That is ...build their widget abroad ..and sell it to the country with greatest consumer resource ...the US!! Thats what they want to do MORON!!

And why is it that they want to do that? Because it's cheaper.

If it were cheaper for them to manufacture here in the US, they'd do it here in the US. That would NECESSARILY create more jobs - which benefits the little guys out there (that's us).

But guess what? If the jobs leave ...guess what happens to that purchasing power..eventually?? CEO's don't give a crap about America or Americans ..all they care about is making the next earnings projections ..period!! Use to be these jobs were thought of as only affecting low skilled worker ...but no longer! So as this practice escalates ..its the engineer, accountant etc jobs that will be on the chopping block!!

How can outsourcing affect service-based jobs?

The fact is the CEO's are doing what they are supposed to do ..make money for the company ...but they do so with absolutely no concern for America or Americans. The CEO's job isn't to stimulate the economy .idiot!! Their job isn't to create jobs for anybody!! Thats just a means to an end!

The CEO's job is to make money for the investor!!

True, the purpose of the corporation isn't to create jobs - it's only the NECESSARY BY-PRODUCT.

Go out and pick up a copy of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. You need it badly.

And as the race to the bottom continues ..they do so eventually at their own demise! This is where the government need to step in.

...and do what? This "race to the bottom" is occurring because corporations are outsourcing more and more manufacturing every year. When you say that this is where the government needs to step in, I can't help but wonder - what do you expect the government to do about it?

If Al Queda was to make toys or shoes and sell to us cheap ...people in America will buy it!! Wouldn't you want the government to step in?

Once again, what is it you expect the government to do about this? There are always boycotts and embargoes but those aren't lasting solutions.

But there is more. Corporations must grow in order to survive...because even if the stock hits $400 per share for example ..investors will buy it expecting some type of ROI. And to that end companies must not just grow .....they must grow at a growing rate.
To that end ...if corporate taxes were lowered (as our infrastucture crumble ..including the millitary under the loss of revenue) much of that windfall will find its way into investors pockets. And after the dust settles ..with the lower tax burden ..the very same corporations will still be tasked by investors to grow at a growing rate ..and soon we are right back where we started. With them and you telling us they need cheaper labor!!!

So, in your world, does corporate growth only benefit the very few people in executive positions?

Here's how it works. We lower corporate taxes, and suddenly investors have more money in their pockets. What do investors do with that money? They invest it! This expands the economy, which creates jobs and diversifies what we produce, which improves our import/export figures.

Oh, and as for your worries about the infrastructure and the military, you might want to remember that you're talking to USMC, a conservative, who would much rather pull funding on the state's welfare programs. The roads and the gentlemen with guns would be just fine.

Again ...you keep up the stupid rant about taxes (cause they told you to) and yet back a president who bloated the government!! Why the hell didn't you demand that bush chop the tax rate even more for corporations!! In fact why not demand bush eliminate taxes!! I know this age old smoke-and mirrors all too well. Having lived in a republican controlled local district where every year the morons all run on the same .."I'm here to lower taxes" talking point! And what happens ..they come in and taxes go up!!

You haven't been here very long so you're forgiven for this one - USMC, on a number of occasions, has expressed his dissatisfaction with Bush's expansion of the federal government.
 

berreal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
114
They stay for the same reasons most American citizens aren't cutting and running for Europe - safety and ideology.

And for the excess wealth they would amass by staying in the US. Also were it just for safety reasons ..if I had the money ...I'd much prefer Europe than the US.

They stay for the money.

You can only play the "if you don't like things here, just leave" card when people talk about how the situation is intolerable - as in, the present situation is so bad they can't abide it enough to get politically involved and try to change it.

Let's say the government sponsored a law that required every citizen to kill children. I would not be able to follow that law long enough to go out and vote for people who'd get it repealed, so I'd be on the next bus to Canada.

Now let's say the government sponsored a law that required every citizen to turn over fifty percent of their total income to the government every year. I wouldn't like such a law, but I could deal with it long enough to vote for people who would get it repealed.

I'm giving the people with money more credit than you give them. All my life growing up, all I've ever heard from the right was how much a burden the tax system is on the rich ..and subsequently how much a victim they are. We've cycled through a plethora of democratic and republican presidents and still we here the same drum beat ...as the same tripe is handed off to younger and younger generations!! Seems to me ...if this was really as advirtised ..and seeing no change regardless of elected president/congress .. by now it would be time to leave!!!




So, in your world, does corporate growth only benefit the very few people in executive positions?

Here's how it works. We lower corporate taxes, and suddenly investors have more money in their pockets. What do investors do with that money? They invest it! This expands the economy, which creates jobs and diversifies what we produce, which improves our import/export figures.

Oh, and as for your worries about the infrastructure and the military, you might want to remember that you're talking to USMC, a conservative, who would much rather pull funding on the state's welfare programs. The roads and the gentlemen with guns would be just fine.


That would have made sense under diffferent circumstances. But again the 5 minutes short-sightedness you obviuosly culled from Google doesn't hold up! The fact that I invest my money doesn't necessarily translate into meaningfull local expansion in today's global economy. If outsourcing is only predicated on cheap labor, as it migrates from the old factory jobs into jobs for educated workers the expansion is apt to be abroad! And oh by the way ...let me debunk the age old ideology fed to you people ...that is ...if you work hard to make rich-people richer ...they will in turn share their wealth with you!! See ...I happen to know rich people don't get rich by sharing or giving away their money to poor people.
Its predicted that in 50 years China will be the super power ..maybe this is all speculation ....but I can tell you the outsourcing, the addictive .."lets build it in China and sell it to Americans" practice is whats fueling this speculation.


What makes America attractive to many foreigners is our middle class standard of living. Most people come here from countries with the model you people want to have here. They come from areas with almost no government and they don't pay taxes. The result is ...they watch the 0.0001% in their country getting richer with almost zero chances of changing their situation!
They figure ..I'd rather have money and pay some taxes ..than have no money at all!!

But not to worry ..I've seen where the ideology has the right-wing lap-dogs fighting even for higher gas prices ..so I'm not surprised here.

I see this as yet another result of what happens when the Rush Limbaughs and Shawn Hannity's use divisiveness and bigotted rhetoric to get you people to act against even your very own interest!
 
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top gun

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
4,940
Location
Ohio, USA
USMC the Almighty;21355]You indicate that you're going to talk about the conservative philosophy and then go on talking about President Bush's hypocrisy. I agree with you -- he has betrayed the conservative philosophy of small government, low taxes, low spending, and individual liberty.

I think that's my point. Republicans talk this "philosophy" just to separate themselves and endear candidates to the far right of their base just to get elected. Then they go and do what they want. So to me a "philosophy" that is not backed up with actions is dishonest. It actually even makes the "philosophy" dishonest because it in itself is a false pretense.

A reasonable concern indeed, but what if DNA evidence were made a requirement to put killers on death row? Would you support it then?

In the most heinous cases where there is an admission of guilt or mountains of evidence some of which might be DNA I'd have no problem implementing a death penalty. There just has to be an incredibly high bar set. Look at the Duke case. These poor guys were almost railroaded by an unethical DA. Had they not had wealthy families they would have been. That could just as easily been a death penalty case. You get no "do overs" implementing the death penalty. I think you have to be certain to the extreme. You probably agree.

Not really a big fan of debating abortion. Just find it hypocritical that killing a innocent unborn is okay, but killing a murderer is particularly egregious.
It is a difficult subject. I have formed my opinion as a husband, and a father of two daughters in their 20's. I also have a grandson by my oldest daughter now. As I listen to the women in my life I see the need for the Birth Control Pill and the need for "choice" to be legal for women to have an abortion. A lot of things happen to women in the real world. Abortion is going to happen legal or not, its always happend... I just want the women to have access to a safe medical procedure if they have to... and I hope they never have to.

What does this have to do with anything?

You were talking about things corporations were being forced to pay for and you brought in the environmentalist angle as one reason you thought was unjust. I was explaining why it wasn't.


That's fair. I believe in a philosophy of small government, personal responsibility, individual liberty, states' rights, low taxes, strong defense, and secure borders.

I could give you my perception of the so-called "liberal" or "progressive" philosophy but I'm sure you wouldn't approve so I'll let you lay it out for me.

When I talk with my conservative friends (yes I have some ;)) we usually find we are not all that far apart on most base issue... abortion being one that is a little more polorizing.

On what you've said you believe in... they are not bad goals at all. But there are some realities that do affect them. For instance small government, huge military and low taxes can be at odds with each other.

State's rights sounds good until you get a case like George Wallace refusing to allow Blacks to attend schools equally because he wanted his state segregated. There are thousands of cases where the Federal government has to be involved and/or step in because on a small state scale it can sometimes be easier to create a corrupt or unfair environment.

Progressives believe in people working and pulling their own weight. But they also believe in safety nets and taking care of the sick and elderly. You know it's funny I know a lot of hard core conservatives that have changed their minds about some things once they really needed a benefit... get hurt on the job and need workers comp... company goes under and they need unemployment benefits or even welfare while they're retraining and getting back up on their feet.

Same with law suits. Everyone thinks law suits are all so frivolous until they have an injured family member and they have to fight against a huge powerful insurance company for benefits they do really deserve. Then it's suddenly not so frivolous.

At the end of the day you run into this. Much like the necessity for the Teamsters Union to be created when business was allowed to dictated unsafe work conditions, ridiculously low pay, unbelievably long hours and the workers had no recourse... corporations would completely take over the country if it weren't for government there as a counter balance.

The best positions are really in the middle. I think the next President will be a Democrat and a pretty centrist one at that. That's my hope at least.
 
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