Josef Stalin: Most Prolific Mass Murderer In History

I'll limit myself to one comment (actually, that's more than deserved) in response to "Stalin's" shuck and jive in response to overwhelming historian conclusion that the Holodomor was genocide:

A BIIIIG deal is made of the claim (unsupported by any cited facts or methodologies) that the ukrainian harvest was less than normal, as if that has any definitive bearing on whether genocide took place. In fact, the harvest was pretty much confiscated for use in Russia, leaving the locals who produced it to starve, rather than rationing it for everyone. I've read accounts of starving ukrainians picking through the rubble at train stations where the grain was loaded, trying to find individual grains that might have fallen. One notes that the Holodomor was just ONE of the log list of genocidal acts by stalin during his long tenure, which I have already posted here.
 
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I'll limit myself to one comment (actually, that's more than deserved) in response to "Stalin's" shuck and jive in response to overwhelming historian conclusion that the Holodomor was genocide:

A BIIIIG deal is made of the claim (unsupported by any cited facts or methodologies) that the ukrainian harvest was less than normal, as if that has any definitive bearing on whether genocide took place. In fact, the harvest was pretty much confiscated for use in Russia, leaving the locals who produced it to starve, rather than rationing it for everyone. I've read accounts of starving ukrainians picking through the rubble at train stations where the grain was loaded, trying to find individual grains that might have fallen. One notes that the Holodomor was just ONE of the log list of genocidal acts by stalin during his long tenure, which I have already posted here.

I posted plenty of links for everybody to take a look at. Since "Stalin" can't defend his namesake's murdering of millions of his own people, "Stalin" has no choice but to focus in on small cherry-picked bits and pieces that amount to NOTHING when the "big picture" is considered.

Like you, Rick, I am DONE debating "Stalin" about this. He is not worth my time. It's really tragic that people like him are allowed to live in our society.
 
Well now that you have to rely on ( the real ) Stalin's figures to support your claim of genocide, I guess throwing in the towel is the only course open to you.

I will attempt to close this post with a re-iteration of Tauger's words...

"...The evidence that I have published and other evidence, including recent Ukrainian document collections, show that the famine developed out of a shortage and pervaded the Soviet Union, and that the regime organized a massive program of rationing and relief in towns and in villages, including in Ukraine, but simply did not have enough food. This is why the Soviet famine, an immense crisis and tragedy of the Soviet economy, was not in the same category as the Nazis' mass murders, which had no agricultural or other economic basis..."

This is not what modern revisionist pseudo-historians want to hear and so, the DATA is never debated.

Comrade Stalin
 
..the claim (unsupported by any cited facts or methodologies) that the ukrainian harvest was less than normal, as if that has any definitive bearing on whether genocide took place.


As usual, no data is provided to support YOUR claims..

too much time fiddling with quantum equations and not enough with real numbers I think..

Dissing someone does not mean they are wrong..

Comrade Stalin
 
As usual, no data is provided to support YOUR claims..

too much time fiddling with quantum equations and not enough with real numbers I think..

Dissing someone does not mean they are wrong..

Comrade Stalin

Besides your being reminiscent of a comical, anachronistic commie shill circa the 1930s :D you have become confused about your own post. My response showed that even assuming YOUR claim, repeat, YOUR claim that the harvest was low, your claim of no genocide, and that of your single crackpot pseudo-historian that there was no genocide, in opposition to the determination of the whole history profession, is unsupportable.
 
Besides your being reminiscent of a comical, anachronistic commie shill circa the 1930s :D you have become confused about your own post. My response showed that even assuming YOUR claim, repeat, YOUR claim that the harvest was low, your claim of no genocide, and that of your single crackpot pseudo-historian that there was no genocide, in opposition to the determination of the whole history profession, is unsupportable.

It is sad to an obviously intellgent person reduced to ad hominem attacks and failure to apply the scientific method and economic analysis that he was, or should have been taught.

Tauger is not an isolated crackpot - he has also done work on the Bengal famine and the history of agriculture.

As I keep saying, just repeating ad nauseum that someone is wrong without a thorough logical case does not make them wrong.

"Natural disaster and human actions in the Soviet famine of 1931-1933 (The Carl Beck papers in Russian & East European studies)

Reviews

"...Professor Tauger empirically examines all environmental and human factors causing one of the most studied - and misrepresented - human catastrophes of the 20th century. The "Holodomor" has become politicized as nationalist mythology, and questioning this near-divine truth has now become an actionable crime in The Ukraine. Yet to smear Professor Tauger's short but thorough study as another form of "Holocaust denial" merely shows the shaky basis for an official dogma as narrow-minded as Stalin's "Five Year Plan in Four." Natural disaster in the form of drought, unseasonal rains, pests and rot would have produced famine or near-famine conditions anyway; the haste, waste and mismanagement of the early kolkhoz system - combined with an uncoordinated but self-destructive peasant backlash - guaranteed it. A useful corrective to the propaganda now claiming hold as orthodox "history", but unfortunately one shunted to the sidelines in favor of politically correct mythology.

...

his is without a doubt the most thorough analysis of the causes of crop failure in the harvest of 1932 which led to the famine that killed about 2.5 million Ukrainians and another couple million non-Ukrainians. Cold War propaganda has long-maintained that the crop of 1932 was perfectly adequate to feed people and that famine only occurred because of the exports of food. This line has been further advanced by willfully distorting the facts about what was exported and when. In fact, most of the grain exported in 1933 (about five-sixths of the total) was exported after the 1933 crop was in at a time when the famine was essentially over. Yet hoaxers like James Mace and Robert Conquest used to imply that most of this was exported during the time of famine in an effort to suggest that the famine could have been almost entirely avoided if only such exports had not been done. In reality, actual crop failure was the principal source of the famine. The Soviet government can be charged with having underestimated the extent of the problem as a case of real crop failure. But most of the charges circulating claiming that the famine was deliberately conjured up in an effort to destroy "Ukrainian nationalism" are without foundation.

Tauger here provides a clear analysis on how and why the crop failure of 1932 occurred. He discusses a myriad of causes, the most important of which was plant rust. Rustic plant diseases had the capacity to reduce the quantity of grain growing within an individual stalk, while the stalks themselves grew and hence created the appearance of an abundant crop. This was what fed the rumors of a plentiful crop and consequently the paranoia that someone (kulaks, communists, etc.) had taken the crops away and thereby created the famine "artificially." As Tauger establishes in detail, the famine was in no way artificial but was the result of an actual natural disaster. That natural disaster was then aggravated by the human failure to identify natural disaster as the root cause and to see that only massive imports of food from abroad could reduce the famine.

Tauger's work is representative of the real benefits which have come from opening up many archives from the old Soviet files. It's unfortunate that many people hold to the misconception that THE BLACK BOOK OF COMMUNISM is representative of what the archives have revealed. In fact THE BLACK BOOK simply repeats Cold War versions which were already being debunked by the newly opened archives at the time THE BLACK BOOK was published. Studying Tauger's work will give people a better grasp of what the archives have actually shown.

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-disas...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306612122&sr=1-2

"..Statistical falsification in the Soviet Union: A comparative case study of projections, biases, and trust (The Donald W. Treadgold papers in Russian, East European, and Central Asian studies)

This is a perfect compliment to another piece by the same author, NATURAL DISASTER AND HUMAN ACTIONS IN THE SOVIET FAMINE OF 1931-1933. Whereas the latter deals with the conditions of natural disaster at the time of famine and the failure of Soviet authorities to grasp the state of affairs, this piece is focused upon analyzing the data of production statistics as they were obtained from the archives after 1991. Although more prudent historians have long recognized the problems with relying on the officially published Soviet statistics of that time, the more sensationalistic versions promoted more widely in public have usually obfuscated this point. This was how James Mace framed the issue back in the days of the Cold War:

-----
... it was not, like most famines, due to some natural calamity or crop failure. Figures on the Ukrainian harvest were published in the press at the time, and they show that the grain crop was only a little below the pre-collectivization average; there was certainly no crop failure capable of causing a famine.
-----
-- Olexa Woropay, edited with an introduction by James Mace, THE NINTH CIRCLE: IN COMMEMORATION OF THE VICTIMS OF THE FAMINE OF 1933, pp. ix-x.

Those figures published in the Sovit press of that time were worthless and so Mace's whole argument is shot to pieces. In fact there certainly was a major crop failure capable of causing a famine. Tauger's NATURAL DISASTER covers one side of these issues; this piece on STATISTICAL FALSIFICATION covers another very important aspect.

In describing the process of statistical falsification Tauger goes much further thn simply documenting the falsity of Mace's reasoning above. He tracks things back to the Czarist era when it became a normal thing for officials compiling statistics of grain production to always assume that peasants were underreporting the true production figures and to routinely augment all such data received from peasant sources. This had become a long-running practice by the time of the 1932 famine. Tauger also establishes with greater clarity the effects of collectivization in raising the annual grain crops.

A study which he notes by Holland Hunter had attempted to argue that without collectivization Soviet agriculture would have reached higher production figures. Unfortunately for Hunter's argument, it rests on false statistics. Hunter had used inflated pre-collectivization figures published officially by the USSR to extrapolate to what later production could have been, but when the figures are corrected it nullifies Hunter's whole argument. In fact collectivization did improve Soviet agricultural output. That fact has been obfuscated by the reality that when natural disaster created the conditions of famine the Soviet government failed to recognize the reality of crop failure and so exacerbated what was a famine crisis caused first of all by nature. But the long-run effects of collectivization on agrarian output were for the better.

This study will rank for a long-time as the leading work on what has been revealed since 1991 by formerly secret archives about Soviet grain output in the years of the famine. The previously officially published inflated Soviet figures are still repeated in many prominent publications such as Andrea Graziosi, THE GREAT SOVIET PEASANT WAR. Works such as this which repeat older official data that implies no serious crop failure must now be set aside to incorporate the data which archival researchers such as Tauger have brought to light.

Taugers other books

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ripbooks&field-keywords=mark+tauger&x=11&y=19

Happy Reading Rick

Comrade Stlin
 
Let me get this straight, someone is defending Stalin? The crops failed because the Soviet system was pitifly inadequate and mismanaged. Accounts differ, but most Ukranian observers of the time say grain was transferred to Moscow while Soviet reports claim a total crop failure. Both are probably correct. Volumns have been written about the purges and death camps in Siberia by Russians themselves. The goofy bastard killed his best generals before WWII out of paranoia and was forced to make do with the monsters we read as heros today, like Zukov who wasted thousands againsed a fortified hill outside Berlin just to beat his competetion to Hitler. Were it not for the American intervention and supplies, the USSR would be a German provence today (not really, the Russian people are brave, they would have defeated Hitler in time) We went after Hitler because he was the greatest danger to us at the time. We went after the Soviets in subordinate nations because the fear of nuke response was to great for direct confrontation. Thank heaven Stalin purged his best intellectuals so their industry and military never reached ours though their population was much larger. Communism and Marxism are bankrupt ideologies, Stalin was a monster bound to no ideology but self preservation.
 
Basically agree, but WWII might have turned out differently for the soviets. Although they and japan were on opposite sides of the war, they didn't attack each other (till the end) even though they are right next to each other. Reason? The japanese had their hands full fighting the americans, their only significant opponent. The US fought all over the globe dealing with a two-front war. The soviets were fighting on one front and on their own territory.
 
Let me get this straight, someone is defending Stalin? The crops failed because the Soviet system was pitifly inadequate and mismanaged. Accounts differ, but most Ukranian observers of the time say grain was transferred to Moscow while Soviet reports claim a total crop failure. Both are probably correct. Volumns have been written about the purges and death camps in Siberia by Russians themselves. The goofy bastard killed his best generals before WWII out of paranoia and was forced to make do with the monsters we read as heros today, like Zukov who wasted thousands againsed a fortified hill outside Berlin just to beat his competetion to Hitler. Were it not for the American intervention and supplies, the USSR would be a German provence today (not really, the Russian people are brave, they would have defeated Hitler in time) We went after Hitler because he was the greatest danger to us at the time. We went after the Soviets in subordinate nations because the fear of nuke response was to great for direct confrontation. Thank heaven Stalin purged his best intellectuals so their industry and military never reached ours though their population was much larger. Communism and Marxism are bankrupt ideologies, Stalin was a monster bound to no ideology but self preservation.

A ramble that adds nothing to the debate and is about 3 pages late.

The debate is now at the stage where where I have posted the opinion of Dr Mark Tauger, an expert on famines, who has studied the relevant Ukrainian archives and concluded that the famine was natural and to support the thesis of genocide, you must accept the allegedly falsified figures of Stalin.

So go back and read the flow of the discussion.

From where I think, if one prejudice or falsehood is shown to be wrong, then all the others are in doubt.

My extended family fought in the Russian and Chinese revolutions - some in both.

You better have your facts nailed or you will be nailed.

Comrade Stalin

P.S. Please write coherently.
 
It looks like Ricks theory that a single crackpot - Tauger's view - has alterante view is on shaky ground

"...SIMFEROPOL, November 24 (RIA Novosti) - The theory that the Stalin-era famine in Ukraine was aimed against the Ukrainian people alone was developed in the U.S. as an anti-Russian propaganda tool, a Crimean legislator and historian said on Monday.

"The theory that the famine was aimed against the Ukrainian nation was born in the United States in 1984 during the fight against the Soviet Union, 'the empire of evil'," said Anatolyi Zhilin.

He added that "Russophobe" Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as an adviser to Kennedy and Johnson administration officials during the 1960s, and the current wife of Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko were involved in creating the myth, designed to "unite the Ukrainian nation in the face of a 'common enemy' - Russia and the Russians."

Yushchenko's wife, Kateryna Yushchenko, is a former U.S. State Department official who was also a White House employee under Reagan. She also worked at the U.S. Treasury and was on the staff at the U.S. Congress. She became a Ukrainian citizen in 2005.

Zhilin expressed his worries that the Ukrainian security services, "not professional historians," were currently beefing up public interest in the topic by unearthing archival data.

The legislator also said most residents of Crimea, a predominantly Russian-speaking area of Ukraine, refused to treat the Holodomor as an act of genocide against Ukrainians.

"The theory that Russians starved Ukrainians in the 20th century is absolutely unacceptable for the majority of the Crimean population," Zhilin said.

Most residents of Crimea abstained from attending official events last Saturday to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the Holodomor in Ukraine.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118485467.html

Comrade Stalin
 
We went after Hitler because he was the greatest danger to us at the time.

Wrong

Hitler declared war on Germany after Pearl Harbour and it suited the US to go along with it.

There were plenty in the US who liked the cut of Adolf's job including Prescott Bush - Hitler's banker in the US.

Prescott Bush was of course the father of the Bin Laden family friend George HW Bush and his egregious son George W Bush, both of whom failed upwards into the Presidency of the United States.

Comrade Stalin
 
Basically agree, but WWII might have turned out differently for the soviets. Although they and japan were on opposite sides of the war, they didn't attack each other (till the end) even though they are right next to each other. Reason? The japanese had their hands full fighting the americans, their only significant opponent. The US fought all over the globe dealing with a two-front war. The soviets were fighting on one front and on their own territory.

...er..wrong..again

The USSR had a neutrality pact with the Japanese until the Yalta conference in February 1945, when it agreed to Allied pleas to terminate the neutrality pact with Japan and enter the Second World War's Pacific theatre within three months after the end of the war in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_Neutrality_Pact

I bet you have not heard of this pact Rick.

Your are not having a good thread on this topic, are you Comrade ?

Comrade Stalin of Vladivostok
 
Our "Stalin" can't be for real. He has to be "shuckin' and jivin'" us.

Sorry, "Stalin", I just don't buy your schtick anymore. You're trying to pull everybody's chains by pretending to be a disciple of Josef Stalin.

So, put the Cheetos and Mountain Dew away, get out of your parent's basement, take a shower, put some clothes on, and go around your area applying for jobs.

McDonald's might be hiring. They usually have job openings. You have to start somewhere. There's nothing wrong with having a job where your principle duty involves the phrase "please pull forward to the second window". At least you'll have a job, and you'll sucking less on the government teet.

On the other hand, if you really are who you say you are, you are completely BATS. Period.
 
...er..wrong..again

The USSR had a neutrality pact with the Japanese until the Yalta conference in February 1945, when it agreed to Allied pleas to terminate the neutrality pact with Japan and enter the Second World War's Pacific theatre within three months after the end of the war in Europe.

:D :D :D
The soviets didn't fight the japanese till the germans were defeated, their one-front war continued to be one front, just on the east. They declared war on a nearly destroyed japan one week before the end of the war, after the US had fought them all the way across the pacific, destroyed their air force, their navy, their cities, most of their industry, and atomic bombed them. Whoopee - doo. :D


Here's the part you "forgot" to cite from the wiki article:

In September 1939, with the outbreak of general war in Europe between Nazi Germany and Poland, the United Kingdom, and France, the Soviet Union needed to mend its diplomatic relations in the Far East in order to concentrate on the growing threat to European Russia in the west. On the other hand, Japan, bogged down in a seemingly interminable war with China and with diplomatic relations with the United States rapidly deteriorating,


In other words, the "neutrality pact" simply codified exactly what I said was the reasons for no desire for engagement on both sides, and either side would have abrogated it in a second if it were to their advantage - in fact, that's what did indeed happen as you yourself admit when the soviets invaded japan. Incidentally, the neutrality treaty also included soviet recognition of the barbarously acquired japanese colony of "manchuko" (manchuria) in northeast occupied china - did you know THAT?

As to that invasion, it represents one aspect of the last act in franklin roosevelt's long disastrous administration, the yalta conference, not only selling out eastern europe to soviet colonialism, but inviting them in to attack japan only because of his doubts about whether the atomic bomb would work. But the atomic bomb was shown to work with the Trinity test on July 16, 1945 - the need for the soviets disappeared at that moment, but FDR inexplicably failed to call off the soviets. In fact, they didn't invade till after the hiroshima bombing, and the same day as the nagasaki bombing.
 
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:D :D :D
The soviets didn't fight the japanese till the germans were defeated, their one-front war continued to be one front, just on the east. They declared war on a nearly destroyed japan one week before the end of the war, after the US had fought them all the way across the pacific, destroyed their air force, their navy, their cities, most of their industry, and atomic bombed them. Whoopee - doo. :D


Here's the part you "forgot" to cite from the wiki article:




In other words, the "neutrality pact" simply codified exactly what I said was the reasons for no desire for engagement on both sides, and either side would have abrogated it in a second if it were to their advantage - in fact, that's what did indeed happen as you yourself admit when the soviets invaded japan. Incidentally, the neutrality treaty also included soviet recognition of the barbarously acquired japanese colony of "manchuko" (manchuria) in northeast occupied china - did you know THAT?

As to that invasion, it represents one aspect of the last act in franklin roosevelt's long disastrous administration, the yalta conference, not only selling out eastern europe to soviet colonialism, but inviting them in to attack japan only because of his doubts about whether the atomic bomb would work. But the atomic bomb was shown to work with the Trinity test on July 16, 1945 - the need for the soviets disappeared at that moment, but FDR inexplicably failed to call off the soviets. In fact, they didn't invade till after the hiroshima bombing, and the same day as the nagasaki bombing.

The only problem I have with anything you wrote is your timeline with Roosevelt. He died in April, 1945, well before the Trinity test. But yes, he gave Stalin the keys to eastern Europe at Yalta. Roosevelt was so ill by that time, that I really don't think he knew what he was doing.
 
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