Lincoln as mass murderer?

Then there is some time when you think the states can nullify a federal law or you would not have used the word "depends".

And if they can nullify some then perhaps others?

On what principle do we know which they can nullify and which they cannot? Their membership in the union very well might be one they can nullify.

I think that states would be able to nullify laws that are clearly unconstitutional...I think the mechanism for finding a law as such however is through the courts.

But the way things are going if things get a lot worse the states will have no choice but to "alter" their relationship to the fed. Would it be through a peaceful legal process or through armed conflict? If the peaceful process were not an option then the stage would be set for what would have to be an armed conflict.

Well, assuming an "armed conflict" broke out, then laws wouldn't mean all that much...whoever wins the fight would set what happens.
 
Werbung:
Big Rob, I have quoted the good Dr. but I am addressing my statements to both of you:

Armed conflict is a terrible last resort which is why I am more interested in discussing legal, peaceful measures for resolving conflicts between the states and federal government.

I agree...a civil war would be the end of America.

Considering the SP decision regarding the 2nd amendment as an individual right was a 5-4 decision (when it should have been 9-0) having faith in the SP to hold federal government within its constitutional boundaries and protect the individual rights of every American is almost foolhardy.

But in your example, the court did protect our 2nd amendment rights. The courts can make decisions we don't agree with, but I think that is why there are avenues to circumvent the court..ie amend the constitution, or rework how the law is written.

Also, its important to remember the SP was never meant to be viewed as the final arbiter of constitutionality, the founders said such a view would lead to an unelected dictatorship of black robes... Obviously that's paraphrased but true to the spirit if not the letter of their sentiments.

It is the best we have however.. the courts are meant to handle disputes, and that is what this issue is. I think the check on the court is what I outlined above..if we don't take advantage of it, it is not the fault of the court in my view.

Now BigRob, lets say Texas grew a big beautiful pair of balls and the Texas legislature passed a binding resolution declaring they no longer recognized the authority of the federal government. Texas will once again recognize the authority of the federal government once federal power has been strictly limited to its constitutional limits as set forth by the enumerated powers. Texas is not threatening, or even suggesting, secession. Texas simply stops sending money to, and accepting money from, the federal government.

How would such an action be viewed? As rebellion? What recourse would the federal government have in dealing with this problem?

I don't think such an action is possible without being viewed as a rebellion...because there is no doubt the federal government has legitimate authority..as spelled out in the Constitution. Therefore, to say that you refuse to recognize such authority (which they clearly have), I don't see how it would be viewed as anything else.

I guess it would ultimately depend on exactly how the Texas legislation was written.

I think the only real option they have that might be feasible is to pass binding legislation that just nullifies federal laws that overreach their authority, and then take that to court to determine if said laws do in fact overreach. You would just have to take it on a case by case basis, but the best thing (in my opinion) would be simply a binding nullification law, but it would still end up in court.
 
I think that states would be able to nullify laws that are clearly unconstitutional...I think the mechanism for finding a law as such however is through the courts.
If the courts failed to provide a remedy for a clearly unconstitutional law would an armed conflict be justified?


If the law that was unconstitutional were the one that forced a state to remain in the union despite the will of the governed and the court failed to provide a remedy then would a state have a right armed conflict?

Setting aside what the court has said: Where in the constitution is there a law that a state cannot secede? (Sorry if this one has been answered I either missed it or don't remember if it was.)

In the absence of a clear statement that states cannot secede or that the congress can force one to stay we should remember that rights not given to congress are retained by the states. The rights of states not spelled out can be assumed to exist but the powers of congress not spelled out can be assumed to not exist.
 
An interesting thought.

The articles of confederation said that the 13 colonies had formed a union that was permanent and could not be dissolved.

But when they signed on to the constitution we presently have they had no problem dissolving the articles of confederation pretty quickly. They also left out the language that said it was a permanent union.

In fact several of the states specifically stated when they joined that they had a right to secede.

"Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, "It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw." A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, "The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State."

http://civilwar.bluegrass.net/secessioncrisis/890304.html
 
If the courts failed to provide a remedy for a clearly unconstitutional law would an armed conflict be justified?

I would ask how you define a "remedy" before answering that question... is a remedy simply hearing the case, or is a remedy arriving at the conclusion that you want?

If the law that was unconstitutional were the one that forced a state to remain in the union despite the will of the governed and the court failed to provide a remedy then would a state have a right armed conflict?

Any state can rebel I suppose, but to really enact any change you would have to win such a revolt. That aside, I think a lot of people who look at the idea of secession don't think through how such an action would play out, and overlook that most likely the vast majority in their respective states have no desire to secede.

For example, do you think of yourself as an American, or as a Floridian (or whatever the case may be).

Setting aside what the court has said: Where in the constitution is there a law that a state cannot secede? (Sorry if this one has been answered I either missed it or don't remember if it was.)

The Constitution does not explicitly state that states cannot secede, hence the whole argument on the issue. I do think however in Texas V. White the issue was more or less resolved, and if that did not resolve it, the Civil War seems to have resolved it.

In the absence of a clear statement that states cannot secede or that the congress can force one to stay we should remember that rights not given to congress are retained by the states. The rights of states not spelled out can be assumed to exist but the powers of congress not spelled out can be assumed to not exist.

The arguments are readily found online.. Chief Justice Chase spells this out:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"

"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States"

Yes, the 10th amendment clearly says powers not given to Congress are retained by the states, but it seems to me to be a logical contradiction to use the founding document of government to argue that the government has no validity. If the Constitution has validity, then so does the federal government....we can debate on how those powers work exactly, but I think it is clear the United States is one nation, indivisible.
 
I would ask how you define a "remedy" before answering that question... is a remedy simply hearing the case, or is a remedy arriving at the conclusion that you want?



Any state can rebel I suppose, but to really enact any change you would have to win such a revolt. That aside, I think a lot of people who look at the idea of secession don't think through how such an action would play out, and overlook that most likely the vast majority in their respective states have no desire to secede.

For example, do you think of yourself as an American, or as a Floridian (or whatever the case may be).



The Constitution does not explicitly state that states cannot secede, hence the whole argument on the issue. I do think however in Texas V. White the issue was more or less resolved, and if that did not resolve it, the Civil War seems to have resolved it.



The arguments are readily found online.. Chief Justice Chase spells this out:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"

"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States"

Yes, the 10th amendment clearly says powers not given to Congress are retained by the states, but it seems to me to be a logical contradiction to use the founding document of government to argue that the government has no validity. If the Constitution has validity, then so does the federal government....we can debate on how those powers work exactly, but I think it is clear the United States is one nation, indivisible.

I suppose a remedy would be on in which the federal government and the state/s that wish to secede are reconciled and once again satisfied to be part of the same union. To be satisfied they would have to believe that truth was arrived at first. They might be willing to give up getting their own way if they saw that truth was not on their side. Then again they might battle for secession anyway. At least a truthful judge would have tried his best.

In reading the argument you provided from Justice Chase I think a hypothetical state wanting to secede would not be satisfied not only because they did not get their way but also because, at least in my opinion, what he said is so clearly wrong considering the evidence I have seen for the opposite point of view.

I don't think it is illogical to use the validity of the constitution to argue for the invalidity of the federal government. Quite a number of founding fathers can be quoted as saying that if the government were to become corrupt the people should dissolve it. I dunno. anyone else want to add some light on the idea of using the constitution to dissolve what it creates?
 
Illegally seceding does not make you an independent country... it makes you in a state of rebellion.


Its not illegal. Nor was this the first time it had come up and at no other time was it ever considered illegal. Accommodations were arrived at and things went on. Lincoln and the north required the south, the south did not require them back. So provocation was initiated and Lincoln got the war he wanted.
 
I would ask how you define a "remedy" before answering that question... is a remedy simply hearing the case, or is a remedy arriving at the conclusion that you want?



Any state can rebel I suppose, but to really enact any change you would have to win such a revolt. That aside, I think a lot of people who look at the idea of secession don't think through how such an action would play out, and overlook that most likely the vast majority in their respective states have no desire to secede.

For example, do you think of yourself as an American, or as a Floridian (or whatever the case may be).



The Constitution does not explicitly state that states cannot secede, hence the whole argument on the issue. I do think however in Texas V. White the issue was more or less resolved, and if that did not resolve it, the Civil War seems to have resolved it.



The arguments are readily found online.. Chief Justice Chase spells this out:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"

"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States"

Yes, the 10th amendment clearly says powers not given to Congress are retained by the states, but it seems to me to be a logical contradiction to use the founding document of government to argue that the government has no validity. If the Constitution has validity, then so does the federal government....we can debate on how those powers work exactly, but I think it is clear the United States is one nation, indivisible.

I chose to agree with the comments by the great Thomas DiLorenzo. I think he has pegged Lincoln correctly.


Thomas DiLorenzo discusses this course in a Mises Daily article here.

In Omnipotent Government (p. 268) Ludwig von Mises wrote that “the adversaries of the trend toward more government control describe their opposition as a . . . contest of states’ rights versus the central power.” To Mises, centralized governmental power was the greatest threat to liberty. And as Edmund Wilson once noted, no one is more responsible for the birth of the centralized, bureaucratic state that Americans slave under than Abraham Lincoln, the “Great Centralizer.” This course will apply Austrian economics and Austrian social theory to understand the economic and political legacies of the real Lincoln, the man who waged total war on his own citizens, killing some 350,000 of them; who shredded the Constitution and essentially declared himself dictator; who suspended Habeas Corpus and imprisoned political opponents by the thousands; who shut down opposition newspapers by the hundreds; who intimidated federal judges and deported an opposition member of Congress; who ignored how most of the rest of the world ended slavery peacefully; who destroyed the voluntary union of the founding fathers that was based on states’ rights and federalism; and whose regime introduced America to income taxation, military conscription, decades of protectionism, corrupt corporate welfare, the internal revenue bureaucracy, and transformed the country from a republic to an empire.
http://academy.mises.org/courses/lincoln/
 
I think this pretty much proves that Lincoln was all about pushing the South to war, when he could have easily avoided it.

It is most unfortunate that Americans have been told the outrageous LIE about Lincoln by the Lincoln Cultists. He is not a man to be honored or respected. He was a statist who directly caused and prosecuted a terrible war that resulted in much killing and destruction.

It should be taught that Lincoln was the kind of man Americans should never elect to the presidency and the power of the presidency should be limited.

Denson finds the answer by appealing to a well-known fact. Most people, despite their aversion for war, are not pacifists. If they have been attacked, they will fight back; and, once battle is joined, matters usually get out of hand. This gives the political leaders their opportunity. They have only to provoke an enemy into an attack. By doing so, they will be able to rally their nation to "defend" against an assault they have themselves instigated. In one prime example of this tactic, Secretary of War Henry Stimson noted in his diary for November 25, 1941, "The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves" (p. 101). Denson discusses in detail two instances of this phenomenon: Abraham Lincoln's attempt, knowing that this would induce an attack, to provision Fort Sumter, and Franklin Roosevelt's aggressive policy toward Japan, which led to the Japanese assault on Pearl Harbor. Denson also considers in less detail Woodrow Wilson's similar tactics toward Germany in World War I.

The key to Lincoln's policy toward the states that had seceded may be found in a passage of his First Inaugural, delivered on March 4, 1861. Here he said that he would not initiate force against the departed states, even though in his view they had acted illegally in seceding. His seemingly conciliatory policy was belied by a qualification. He said that he would not use force, except to the extent necessary to collect the duties and imposts.

The power confided in me [Lincoln] will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere. (p. 47, emphasis omitted)
The government of the United States depended at that time for its revenue principally on tariffs. These operated to the disadvantage of the South, a largely agricultural area, which had to pay high prices for imports. Tariffs redistributed wealth from the South to the North.

Another development which began to divide the North and South was that the political power of the North allowed it to keep a vast majority of the tariff revenue and use it for "internal improvements," such as building harbors and canals, which was, in effect, a corporate welfare program. (p. 38)
Northern interests added to Southern misery by using the tariff explicitly for industrial protection, culminating in the Morrill Tariff, passed by the Senate in February 1861, after a number of states had already seceded, and avidly promoted by Lincoln. (For an outstanding account of the crucial role of tariffs in secession, in addition to the sources cited by Denson, see Mark Thornton and Robert B. Ekelund, Jr., Tariffs, Blockades, and Inflation: The Economics of the Civil War [2004]).

By seceding, the South threatened this entire system. By instituting a free-trade zone — or at least by drastically undercutting Northern tariffs — the South could divert the bulk of international trade to Southern ports; Northern business would be struck a severe blow and the federal government compelled to seek an alternative system of revenue. Lincoln, a firm believer in tariffs, was determined to prevent this from happening. Hence his insistence that the duties and imposts would be collected.

The message was not lost on the South.
They at once recognized Lincoln's aggressive intentions in the Inaugural. Additionally, he refused to receive the Confederate commissioners sent to negotiate such matters as the sale of federal property in the states that had seceded. With this background, it is small wonder that both the South Carolina Governor and Confederate President Jefferson Davis demanded that Fort Sumter be surrendered. The only plausible purpose for the federal government to retain the fort would be to ensure that federal tariffs were collected on goods entering the port of Charleston, and this the Confederacy could on no account allow if its independence were to be preserved.

Precisely this state of affairs gave Lincoln his opportunity. He, along with most members of his Cabinet, at first contemplated surrender of the fort, as its defense was militarily next to impossible. Further reflection led Lincoln to change his mind. Secretary of State Seward had led the Southern authorities to believe that Lincoln would surrender the fort, but the president now prevaricated. He now said that he would send provisions to the fort, not arms.

Why did he do so? Denson follows a famous article by Charles W. Ramsdell, "Lincoln and Fort Sumter," Journal of Southern History (1937) (pp. 47, 60). Lincoln, in this view, deliberately used his knowledge that the South could not tolerate a federal fort on a permanent basis to induce the South to attack it. If the fort were attacked when Lincoln was ostensibly only supplying it with provisions, Northern opinion could be swayed to support an all-out attack on the "disloyal" states. They would be guilty of an assault on federal property: was it not then justifiable to repel those who had dared to fire on the American flag? In fact, provisions had been shut off only because the Confederate authorities got wind of Lincoln's devious intentions. Had Lincoln seriously wished a peaceful resolution, the matter could have been readily resolved.

The thesis may at first strike one as extreme, but substantial evidence exists to support it. By no means does the case rest on mere inference about Lincoln's intentions. His onetime Illinois colleague, Senator Orville Browning, said that Lincoln explicitly told him that he intended to provoke an incident over Fort Sumter. Browning met with Lincoln on the evening of July 3, 1861, and his diary for that date contains this entry:

He himself [Lincoln] conceived the idea, and proposed sending supplies, without an attempt to reinforce, giving notice of the fact to Governor Pickens of S.C. [South Carolina]. The plan succeeded. They attacked Sumter — it fell, and thus, did more service than it otherwise could. (p. 83, emphasis omitted)
Denson's argument, and that of other Lincoln revisionists such as Thomas DiLorenzo, should not be misunderstood. He does not contend that the policy of Jefferson Davis was beyond reproach. Perhaps Davis ought not to have fallen into Lincoln's trap; on this issue Denson does not commit himself. The point, rather, is that Lincoln set a trap. Neither does Denson deny that the Southern states, in seceding, were in part motivated by fear that Lincoln would interfere with slavery. The question that interests him is rather why Lincoln would not let the South depart in peace, and here the answer lies in the tariff, not slavery. It is, by the way, ironic that such self-styled defenders of freedom as Harry Jaffa and his acolyte Timothy Sandefur, who attack "neo-Confederate" views of the sort that Denson here ably advocates, themselves think that slavery was a more efficient economic system than the free market. They hold that, once entrenched, only Lincoln's bellicose policy could have eradicated it. The "neo-Confederates," with greater confidence in freedom, think that free labor would have overcome competition from slaves and that, accordingly, emancipation could have been secured without the horrors of civil war, as it was elsewhere in the world. Sandefur has presumed to "correct" Mises on the efficiency of slave labor; one imagines that the great work of J.E. Cairnes, The Slave Power (New York, 1862), with its cogent argument for the deleterious effects of slavery on economic growth, would likewise meet with his disapproval.
http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=336
 
I suppose a remedy would be one in which the federal government and the state/s that wish to secede are reconciled and once again satisfied to be part of the same union. To be satisfied they would have to believe that truth was arrived at first. They might be willing to give up getting their own way if they saw that truth was not on their side. Then again they might battle for secession anyway. At least a truthful judge would have tried his best.

States already can seek remedy in the courts...but if you just disregard what the court says, then there is nothing really to argue about..

In reading the argument you provided from Justice Chase I think a hypothetical state wanting to secede would not be satisfied not only because they did not get their way but also because, at least in my opinion, what he said is so clearly wrong considering the evidence I have seen for the opposite point of view.

I don't agree...I don't think what he said is wrong. As the ruling said, states can leave, but with the consent of the "states." (or revolt) So, it would seem that if all the states got together and said Florida wants to leave, let them go, then Florida can go, but not otherwise.

I don't think it is illogical to use the validity of the constitution to argue for the invalidity of the federal government. Quite a number of founding fathers can be quoted as saying that if the government were to become corrupt the people should dissolve it. I dunno. anyone else want to add some light on the idea of using the constitution to dissolve what it creates?

I think the people can dissolve the government..by electing a new one, I would be interested to hear other opinions on this issue though.
 
Werbung:
Slavery was ended in 1866 with the Thirteenth Amendment, but at the cost of 620,000 lives; hundreds of thousands more that were crippled for life; and the near destruction of almost half the nation’s economy. By contrast, dozens of other countries (including Argentina, Colombia, Chile, all of Central America, Mexico, Bolivia, Uruguay, the French and Danish colonies, Ecuador, Peru, and Venezuela) ended slavery peacefully during the first 60 years of the nineteenth century. Why not the U.S.?

Lincoln may have "saved" the Union in a geographic sense, but his war destroyed the union defined as a voluntary association of states. Forcing a state to remain in the union at gunpoint renders that state a conquered province, not a genuine partner. This was the overwhelming sentiment of Northern opinion makers at the outset of the war.

As Horace Greeley wrote on March 21, 1861: "The great principle embodied by Jefferson in the Declaration is that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed." If southerners wanted to secede, "they have a clear right to do so." "Nine out of ten of the people of the North," Greeley wrote, were opposed to forcing South Carolina to remain in the Union.

During the war Lincoln established a number of tyrannical precedents, including unconstitutionally conducting a war without the consent of Congress; suspending habeas corpus; conscripting railroads and censoring telegraph lines; imprisoning without trial some 30,000 northern citizens for merely voicing opposition to the war; deporting a member of Congress, Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio, for opposing Lincoln’s income tax proposal at a Democratic Party political rally; shutting down hundreds of Northern newspapers and imprisoning their editors for questioning his war policies; ordering federal troops to intimidate voters into voting Republican; and intentionally waging war against civilians.
http://mises.org/daily/607


DiLorenzo, like Spooner, makes skilled use of quotations from Lincoln to support his analysis of Lincoln's policies. "In his first inaugural address Lincoln shockingly threw down the gauntlet over the tariff issue, literally threatening the invasion of any state that failed to collect the newly doubled tariff … '[T]here needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it is forced upon the national authority.' What was he [Lincoln] talking about? What might ignite bloodshed and violence? Failure to collect the tariff, that's what … he further stated that it was his duty 'to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion…' In other words, Pay Up or Die" (p. 126).

Lincoln for once spoke with complete truth. He did indeed resort to any means necessary, however brutal, to crush the Southern secessionists. The result of Lincoln's aggressive prosecution of the war was "the killing of one out of four males of military age while maiming for life more than double that number" (p. 28).http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=312

Lincoln, were he alive today, would find much to like with the current occupant of the White House. Both are statists and prepared to do whatever is necessary to reach their TYRANNICAL goals.

The consequences of the Civil War resulted in destruction of half the nation, terrible death and suffering, and caused southern racism with one party rule which lasted over 100 years. And, all to impose a F**KING tariff to generate revenue for the Federal Government. Sad. Very sad.
 
Back
Top