obozo's new war

[Rick]

Some key points:

-America has intervened in a civil war in a tribal society, the dynamics of which America does not understand

Yeah - there's not a SINGLE expert on Libya, much less tribalists, in the US. Yaaaaaaaa riiiiiiiiiight.

-Many in the media call Moammar Gaddafi’s opponents “freedom fighters,” and perhaps they are, but no one calling them that really knows how the insurgents regard one another, or understand freedom, or if freedom, however understood, is their priority.

Exactly, but it's the >>>LIBERAL<<< media calling them freedom fighters.

-In Libya, mission creep began before the mission did. A no-fly zone would not accomplish what Barack Obama calls “a well-defined goal,” the “protection of civilians.” So the no-fly zone immediately became protection for aircraft conducting combat operations against Gaddafi’s ground forces.

correct

 

[BigRob]

Yeah - there's not a SINGLE expert on Libya, much less tribalists, in the US. Yaaaaaaaa riiiiiiiiiight.

Just like those Iraq/Afghanistan "tribal" experts did such a great job? We have shown time and again that we are unable to fully plan for interventions in heavily tribal areas...

Why will Libya be different?

Exactly, but it's the >>>LIBERAL<<< media calling them freedom fighters.

And the US government continually refers to the "Libyan people" as a homogeneous body...which just screams that we are not considering the tribal dynamic.

 

[BigRob]

Big problems seem to be looming for the NATO coalition.. will it even survive?

- Tensions with Britain as Gates rebukes UK government over suggestion Gaddafi could be assassinated
- French propose a new political 'committee' to oversee operations
- Germany pulls equipment out of NATO coalition over disagreement over campaign's direction
- Italians accuse French of backing NATO in exchange for oil contracts
- No-fly zone called into question after first wave of strikes 'neutralises' Libyan military machine
- U.K. ministers say war could last '30 years'
- Italy to 'take back control' of bases used by allies unless NATO leadership put in charge of the mission
- Russians tell U.S. to stop bombing in order to protect civilians - calls bombing a 'crusade'

Good thing we all have such a clear mandate from the UN right? Oh wait, there is disagreement on that...good thing President Obama clearly defined American goals though...oh wait...he has not really outside of some vague notions of "protecting civilians", whatever that means.

 

[Rick]

Just like those Iraq/Afghanistan "tribal" experts did such a great job? We have shown time and again that we are unable to fully plan for interventions in heavily tribal areas...

Why will Libya be different?

Uh, you're wrong there - the US overthrew saddam and established the middle east's second (and first arab) democracy, which is fully operational. Apparently they DID know what they were doing.

You can see everywhere in Libya from the reports people waving the >>>NATIONAL<<< flag - doesn't sound like tribalism to me.

 

[BigRob]

Uh, you're wrong there - the US overthrew saddam and established the middle east's second (and first arab) democracy, which is fully operational. Apparently they DID know what they were doing.

You can see everywhere in Libya from the reports people waving the >>>NATIONAL<<< flag - doesn't sound like tribalism to me.

If you don't think tribal dynamics played a large role in the insurgency, and then the Awakening, in Iraq, then there is no point continuing discussion...and you simply gloss over the decade it took to arrive a point where people are not dying daily...that is the plan for Libya?

In terms of Libya, waving the national flag doesn't mean there are not tribal divisions....Gaddafi has run Libya much like Saddam ran Iraq..I suggest you do a little research into what the actual experts have to say in terms of Libya's tribal structure.

 

[Rick]

If you don't think tribal dynamics played a large role in the insurgency, and then the Awakening, in Iraq, then there is no point continuing discussion...

But let's not start fuzzing the issue - you started out by implying the US is stupid when comes to deciphering desert tribalism.

and you simply gloss over the decade it took to arrive a point where people are not dying daily...that is the plan for Libya?

Awwwwww - do wars last too long for your approval? Better that they should last one week and involve no casualties - let me know when you come up with a plan.

In terms of Libya, waving the national flag doesn't mean there are not tribal divisions....Gaddafi has run Libya much like Saddam ran Iraq..I suggest you do a little research into what the actual experts have to say in terms of Libya's tribal structure.

The reality is, while you obsess over the nuances of camel jockey sociology, Kaddafy is getting his ass kicked by plain ol' brute force - most experts I've heard on TV say he's gone sooner than later.

 

[BigRob]

But let's not start fuzzing the issue - you started out by implying the US is stupid when comes to deciphering desert tribalism.

No, my comment was that the US has a proven track record of poor planning for interventions in tribal areas...be it Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya.

Awwwwww - do wars last too long for your approval? Better that they should last one week and involve no casualties - let me know when you come up with a plan.

We needlessly prolonged a civil war due to poor planning and a lack of a coherent tribal strategy in Iraq, which lead to the deaths of numerous serviceman.

I point that out, and your response is "awwwww...do wars last too long for your approval". The absurdity of such a response is simply staggering...you then choose to argue against a strawman than address the real issue.

No has suggested that the war in Iraq should have ended in a week...but that point does not negate that we failed to have a coherent strategy in the post war scenario.

The reality is, while you obsess over the nuances of camel jockey sociology, Kaddafy is getting his ass kicked by plain ol' brute force - most experts I've heard on TV say he's gone sooner than later.

Your comment again misses the entire point....The real question is what happens after Gaddafi leaves (since that is what we want)?

According to you, there is no need to plan, things will magically solve themselves. Good luck with that.

 

[Rick]

No, my comment was that the US has a proven track record of poor planning for interventions in tribal areas...be it Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya.

We needlessly prolonged a civil war due to poor planning and a lack of a coherent tribal strategy in Iraq, which lead to the deaths of numerous serviceman.

The shiites and sunnis have hated each other for hundreds of years - that they would fight each other after secularist saddam was removed was inevitable - no "planning" could have avoided it. What could have avoided it? Bring in an american tribal expert to say to them "Yaaaa - you guys been fighting each other since the 7th century AD, but settle down now."

Your comment again misses the entire point....The real question is what happens after Gaddafi leaves (since that is what we want)?

Can you settle on just ONE "real question"?

OF COURSE anyone of intelligence (that would exclude obozo) has thought about that. I started thinking, as soon as revolts occurred that in egypt, Libya, and elsewhere, that someone like the muslim brotherhood would try to move into the power vaccum.

 

[BigRob]

The shiites and sunnis have hated each other for hundreds of years - that they would fight each other after secularist saddam was removed was inevitable - no "planning" could have avoided it. What could have avoided it? Bring in an american tribal expert to say to them "Yaaaa - you guys been fighting each other since the 7th century AD, but settle down now."

The "shiites and sunnis" are not tribes.

Can you settle on just ONE "real question"?

OF COURSE anyone of intelligence (that would exclude obozo) has thought about that. I started thinking, as soon as revolts occurred that in egypt, Libya, and elsewhere, that someone like the muslim brotherhood would try to move into the power vaccum.

Thinking about an issue and developing a workable strategy to combat the rise in power of such groups are drastically different things.

And of course, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a tribe either.

 

[Rick]

The "shiites and sunnis" are not tribes.



Thinking about an issue and developing a workable strategy to combat the rise in power of such groups are drastically different things.

And of course, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a tribe either.

trib·al·ism   /ˈtraɪbəˌlɪzəm/
–noun
2. strong loyalty to one's own tribe, party, or group.


Try again, Sparky.

 

[BigRob]

trib·al·ism   /ˈtraɪbəˌlɪzəm/
–noun
2. strong loyalty to one's own tribe, party, or group.


Try again, Sparky.

Nice attempt to save face...however your assertion is simply absurd.

No actual expert is going to explain the "tribal" dynamic solely in terms of "sunni" or "shiite", and even more laughable is the idea that the tribal dynamic is the "sunni or shiite" tribe.

Your comments ought to be exhibit A in backing up my assertion that most (if not all) people have no idea what the tribal dynamic in Libya is.

 

[Rick]

Nice attempt to save face...however your assertion is simply absurd.

No actual expert is going to explain the "tribal" dynamic solely in terms of "sunni" or "shiite", and even more laughable is the idea that the tribal dynamic is the "sunni or shiite" tribe.

Your comments ought to be exhibit A in backing up my assertion that most (if not all) people have no idea what the tribal dynamic in Libya is.

The thread started talking about tribalism, which any sharp 12 year old can tell you doesn't just pertain to tribes. Anyone who read at least two news articles about the iraq war (which you dragged into the thread) and who has an IQ over 80 knows the main civil war component of the iraq war was about sunni vs shiite.

 

[Stalin]

The self-absorption of little Americans, who seem to be the dominant species on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

This is a UN operation, not a US one, and one cobbled together mainly by Europe.

Of course, if it is a success, then we can all expect the blowhards in the US to claim the credit etc etc etc.

This is a surgical operation to remove a malignant influence who falsely claims to be a socialist.

Gaddafi is history and after him, Mugabe will follow.

Comrade Stalin

 

[Gipper]

The self-absorption of little Americans, who seem to be the dominant species on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

This is a UN operation, not a US one, and one cobbled together mainly by Europe.

Of course, if it is a success, then we can all expect the blowhards in the US to claim the credit etc etc etc.

This is a surgical operation to remove a malignant influence who falsely claims to be a socialist.

Gaddafi is history and after him, Mugabe will follow.

Comrade Stalin

Let the Euros handle the situation. The USA should not be involved. We are bankrupt. We need no more wars liberating Muslim nations who hate us and will likely once liberated from their old dictator, put in power another.

Total waste of time, money, and man power.

If the "Obama Doctrine" is controlling all the world's civil wars, our days as a superpower are numbered.

 

[Hobo1]

Let the Euros handle the situation. The USA should not be involved. We are bankrupt. We need no more wars liberating Muslim nations who hate us and will likely once liberated from their old dictator, put in power another.

Total waste of time, money, and man power.

If the "Obama Doctrine" is controlling all the world's civil wars, our days as a superpower are numbered.

I totally agree. Let Europe handle the whole affair. Do the fighting, pay the bill, take credit, take blame. America has been at war since 2001. It is time to stay home and take care of our country for a change.

I hope Europe has the military power to handle the heavy lifting.

The truth is, Europe can never get its act together to be able to fight a war by itself.