This Iraq war is pointless

[The Founders Intent]

WWII was about destroying fascism. Iraq is about destroying fascism. It's also about preserving the flow of oil as it has been for 50 years, that is, not letting Islamic fanatics control it, but letting those we can work with control it. It does not mean we like those people or their government. So we benefit from the oil, well didn't we benefit from all the German technology and scientists after WWII? I don't see anyone feeling guilty about that. Remember all the neat stuff that came out of the space program, like rockets, computer chips, glues, satellites, communications, synthetic materials, ...... all from procuring German scientist to come here after WWII. Anyone still wanting to question the morality of various wars, should just forget it. Morality is a part of every war, and so is politics, technology, and money (i.e., spoils of war). If you don't know that already, you are naive. The liberals preach righteousness about wars, but shun righteous principles like religion. So why the contradiction? Well it's very simple, the preaching isn't about morality it's about politics and power. It's a means to an end. Once you see that, it all makes sense.

 

[Coyote]

Only because you wish you were dead after the third one and you forget about whatever it was that was wrong with you in the first place.

....it's all that damned roadkill.

 

[ArmChair General]

WWII was about destroying fascism. Iraq is about destroying fascism. It's also about preserving the flow of oil as it has been for 50 years, that is, not letting Islamic fanatics control it, but letting those we can work with control it. It does not mean we like those people or their government. So we benefit from the oil, well didn't we benefit from all the German technology and scientists after WWII? I don't see anyone feeling guilty about that. Remember all the neat stuff that came out of the space program, like rockets, computer chips, glues, satellites, communications, synthetic materials, ...... all from procuring German scientist to come here after WWII. Anyone still wanting to question the morality of various wars, should just forget it. Morality is a part of every war, and so is politics, technology, and money (i.e., spoils of war). If you don't know that already, you are naive. The liberals preach righteousness about wars, but shun righteous principles like religion. So why the contradiction? Well it's very simple, the preaching isn't about morality it's about politics and power. It's a means to an end. Once you see that, it all makes sense.

and people around here think im crazy. your friggin nuts man.

 

[Coyote]

WWII was about destroying fascism. Iraq is about destroying fascism. It's also about preserving the flow of oil as it has been for 50 years, that is, not letting Islamic fanatics control it, but letting those we can work with control it. It does not mean we like those people or their government. So we benefit from the oil, well didn't we benefit from all the German technology and scientists after WWII? I don't see anyone feeling guilty about that. Remember all the neat stuff that came out of the space program, like rockets, computer chips, glues, satellites, communications, synthetic materials, ...... all from procuring German scientist to come here after WWII. Anyone still wanting to question the morality of various wars, should just forget it. Morality is a part of every war, and so is politics, technology, and money (i.e., spoils of war). If you don't know that already, you are naive. The liberals preach righteousness about wars, but shun righteous principles like religion. So why the contradiction? Well it's very simple, the preaching isn't about morality it's about politics and power. It's a means to an end. Once you see that, it all makes sense.

Reminds me of a song....

Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun
A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown
"Ha, Nazi schmazi," says Wernher von Braun

Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun

Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun

You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun

 

[vyo476]

and people around here think im crazy. your friggin nuts man.

I still think you're crazy. But you're also right.

 

[top gun]

USMC the Almighty;5699]It is not a civil war -- it is sectarian violence to a degree a little higher than gang violence in cities like Detroit or violence in countries like Jamaica. So when there are months where Jamaica has more violence than Iraq, then I assume to would also identify Jamaica as being in a civil war?

Come on! Even top generals now call it a Civil War and I can't believe you said, "violence to a degree a little higher than gang violence in cities like Detroit". If you believe there are hundreds... thousands of roadside bombs & suicide bombers blowing up buildings, vehicles and personnel in Detroit not to mention all the large and small arms battling that's going on I don't know what to say...

Secondly, it is not Iraq that is being contested. It's the four provinces surrounding Baghdad. Most of Iraq is secure as most countries in the world -- just the typical violence that you'd find in cities like New York, London, etc.

You have GOT to be kidding me?

We declared Independence in 1776. It wasn't until 1801 that we were even sure our democracy was functioning. Governments take time to build. Rome
wasn't created in a day...

My friend. This is America. It is not our job to send our brave soldiers into harms way to Nation Build. We use our forces to defend the United States of America not to militarily enforce and financially pay for with hard earned tax payers dollars the building of new countries more to our liking.

And you know what happened to ROME right? It fell.

I assume you're saying "just let all the Muslims kill each other". While it sounds like it could work and eventually they would just kill each other off --it doesn't work like that. Just look at Africa.

You're comparing one defenseless group being slaughtered by a powerful & armed group in Africa to two equally armed religious groups in a Civil War over control of Iraq. There is no comparison. Your advice... just stay forever? Because that's how long this religious conflict will go on. Just like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

There's that heralded liberal open mindedness on display.

And what would we characterize the administrations attitude as being... maybe stuck on stupid?

 

[vyo476]

Come on! Even top generals now call it a Civil War and I can't believe you said, "violence to a degree a little higher than gang violence in cities like Detroit". If you believe there are hundreds... thousands of roadside bombs & suicide bombers blowing up buildings, vehicles and personnel in Detroit not to mention all the large and small arms battling that's going on I don't know what to say...

Hate to tell you, but he's actually been there, whereas you're going on what you see in the news.

And there are plenty of little clever tricks that AP is using to make things look worse than they are.

My friend. This is America. It is not our job to send our brave soldiers into harms way to Nation Build. We use our forces to defend the United States of America not to militarily enforce and financially pay for with hard earned tax payers dollars the building of new countries more to our liking.

We also used to be an isolationist nation, back when it made sense to be an isolationist nation. Things change.

And you know what happened to ROME right? It fell.

It took a long time for that to happen and they largely ignored the warning signs as they got worse. So far our economy has remained in decent shape and our ability to defend our borders against attack remains as strong as ever. Our enemies are not massing against us and are scattered, disorganized, and in hiding. All in all, I'd say we're in better shape than the Romans were in 410.

You're comparing one defenseless group being slaughtered by a powerful & armed group in Africa to two equally armed religious groups in a Civil War over control of Iraq. There is no comparison. Your advice... just stay forever? Because that's how long this religious conflict will go on. Just like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

That'd be if he was simply comparing Iraq to Darfur (or Rwanda). He wasn't; there are plenty of equally-sided religious and tribal wars in Africa. Blame the Europeans for drawing the borders so damn poorly.

And what would we characterize the administrations attitude as being... maybe stuck on stupid?

I don't particularly like how the war has been handled; the "clear, hold, build" strategy was particularly weak because there were never enough American troops to handle the "hold" part - especially while the Iraqi police forces weren't pulling their weight.

If you ask me we ought to have been bringing Iraqi military leaders to America to study at military academies and sending a few good 'ole American drill sergeants to Iraq to get their men into tip-top shape. Then again, I'm no strategist.

 

[9sublime]

It took a long time for that to happen and they largely ignored the warning signs as they got worse. So far our economy has remained in decent shape and our ability to defend our borders against attack remains as strong as ever. Our enemies are not massing against us and are scattered, disorganized, and in hiding. All in all, I'd say we're in better shape than the Romans were in 410.

I would say that most American's dont realise that China is quickly becoming a superpower, they are turning the Middle East against them dramatically, much of Europe is drifting away from direct support, and South America continues to have anti-American leaders in place.

Apart from that, when fossil fuels run out, all the tables are going to turn on everyone, and you may well find yourself at the bottom.

 

[top gun]

vyo476;7484]Hate to tell you, but he's actually been there, whereas you're going on what you see in the news.

Untrue... my best friend in the world son Scott is over there as we speak, for the second time. He's an Army Ranger, a sergeant. We're very proud of Scott and we support the troops by trying to put as much pressure on as possible to get him out of the middle of this Civil War. He's there. We'll believe him.

And there are plenty of little clever tricks that AP is using to make things look worse than they are.

My friend bad is bad... no one needs to make up anything. You hurt the troops when you blindly back this president and his failed policies. The American people know the truth.

We also used to be an isolationist nation, back when it made sense to be an isolationist nation. Things change.

Things do change. Like Congress and the presidency and we're looking forward to the change continuing.

It took a long time for that to happen and they largely ignored the warning signs as they got worse. So far our economy has remained in decent shape and our ability to defend our borders against attack remains as strong as ever. Our enemies are not massing against us and are scattered, disorganized, and in hiding. All in all, I'd say we're in better shape than the Romans were in 410.

The fact remains. Economic reality doesn't change just because we like the person running up the debt. It's an ECONOMY KILLER! As time goes on the Republicans will see what they've brought on to the American people... but they'll blame the next president. It's their pattern but by everyone pointing it out early they'll have no place to hide when the bill comes due.
As far as our enemies... Iraq had nothing to do with 911 or terrorism. It was a country run by a heavy handed dictator that we didn't like but that the U.N. had in a controlled box by the US and it's allies controlling things with "No Fly Zones... etc.". They couldn't even fly a crop duster. Now there are insurgents everywhere and a HUGE Civil War and you say we're better off? Please... it's much, much worse and everyone knows it.

That'd be if he was simply comparing Iraq to Darfur (or Rwanda). He wasn't; there are plenty of equally-sided religious and tribal wars in Africa. Blame the Europeans for drawing the borders so damn poorly.

I'm sorry there's just no comparison.

I don't particularly like how the war has been handled; the "clear, hold, build" strategy was particularly weak because there were never enough American troops to handle the "hold" part - especially while the Iraqi police forces weren't pulling their weight.

Unfortunately weak strategy is the key and will continue to be the key as long as Bush is president no matter what type of "Dog & Pony Show" he trots out.

If you ask me we ought to have been bringing Iraqi military leaders to America to study at military academies and sending a few good 'ole American drill sergeants to Iraq to get their men into tip-top shape. Then again, I'm no strategist.

We'll you're obviously a better one than the ones we've got now.

 

[Phoenix68]

I guess this is our opportunity to find-out how much we actually learned, in Iraq.​