Question 4 for Christians

[pocketfullofshells]

Firstly, you have misunderstood and mischaracterized God grossly.

Second, is your Dad 100% perfect and did you disown him? He is the only Dad you have right?

God is the only God around, whether you believe that or not, and there is only one game in town, like it or not.

You can disown God based on your own false understanding of who He is but you will only be throwing away a relationship with the only heavenly Father there is.

Why should a baby be born sick? The alternative is for God to obliterate the things that caused the sickness. That would be sin. For God to obliterate sin He would need to stop every person on earth from doing anything wrong. They would have no ability to make any wrong choice. They would have no free will. This is a greater wrong than permitting us to experience the consequences of our sins. Consequences that are here to teach us and promote spiritual growth so that we can live with God in heaven. Would you have us all be perfectly healthy and ignorant of our need to correct sin and then die forever? Or would you have us experience some pain in life as lesson so that we can live forever?

Worship of God is intended to be a relationship like a loving son to a loving father. Children who have poor relationships with their Fathers should seek a better relationship rather than maintaining a poor one that involves either rebellion or groveling.

worshiping a God like a Father is just like a Father. some are not deserving or Praise, Groveling, Monuments, or anything.

And I did not say there is no god, or that if there is god is as stated. I am saying I don't believe in a god who has us all action out parts in some grand plan to do what ever it wishes. I don't believe everything happens for a reason. I don't believe there is good and evil, in a Biblical sense, ( Right and Wrong yes) but no Devil making people do things that are bad, no evil spirits, and all that crap.

Personally I think the chances are there being a god are slim to almost none, but I don't rule it out. But I will be who I am, I try to do what I think is right most of the time, and in the end if that's not good enough, that god can suck it.

 

[Dr.Who]

worshiping a God like a Father is just like a Father. some are not deserving or Praise, Groveling, Monuments, or anything.

And I did not say there is no god, or that if there is god is as stated. I am saying I don't believe in a god who has us all action out parts in some grand plan to do what ever it wishes. I don't believe everything happens for a reason. I don't believe there is good and evil, in a Biblical sense, ( Right and Wrong yes) but no Devil making people do things that are bad, no evil spirits, and all that crap.

Personally I think the chances are there being a god are slim to almost none, but I don't rule it out. But I will be who I am, I try to do what I think is right most of the time, and in the end if that's not good enough, that god can suck it.

I once worked with a guy who chose not to believe that reality was externally existing outside of his mind. He chose to think that if he stuck his finger in a light socket with the right mind set that it would not hurt him.

You can choose not to believe in a certain kind of God all you want but what if that certain kind of God is in fact the kind of God that there is?

Not that God is like how you paint Him.

I suggest that you first, really and truly understand what other people are talking about when they talk about God. All those people, Mulims, Christians etc.

Then judge the accuracy of what they claim based on some sort of evidence on not on what you prefer to be.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I once worked with a guy who chose not to believe that reality was externally existing outside of his mind. He chose to think that if he stuck his finger in a light socket with the right mind set that it would not hurt him.

You can choose not to believe in a certain kind of God all you want but what if that certain kind of God is in fact the kind of God that there is?

Not that God is like how you paint Him.

I suggest that you first, really and truly understand what other people are talking about when they talk about God. All those people, Mulims, Christians etc.

Then judge the accuracy of what they claim based on some sort of evidence on not on what you prefer to be.

you act like there is one type that people belive in. I know Christains who belive in a loving forgiving god, others who think he is a angry bitter Tyrant who lashes out and those who sin and all that bull.

Fact is you have no clue, at least I dont act like I do. And if I do what I think is right, and in the end some god judges I was wrong, F it, I did what I felt was best.

 

[9sublime]

Actually, much of what's written in the Bible has proved to be historically accurate, through the archaeological record. The parts having to do strictly with "faith" however can never be proven, nor disproved, which is why it's called faith.

Sure, the people and places have been proved, but not all the garbage people have been trying to convince me of about why natural evil exists. That is just made up in someones head and preached to everyone else.

 

[Dr.Who]

you act like there is one type that people belive in. I know Christains who belive in a loving forgiving god, others who think he is a angry bitter Tyrant who lashes out and those who sin and all that bull.

Fact is you have no clue, at least I dont act like I do. And if I do what I think is right, and in the end some god judges I was wrong, F it, I did what I felt was best.

My apologies, There were multiple parts of my posts getting mixed up together.

of course there is only one God and therefore one personality according to mainstream Christianity.

Within that various people do have their pet theories.

Neverthless your undertanding appears to be quite warped. If you find Christians who share your understanding then I would say that their understanding is warped too. That is my opinion. I can back it up with bible verses and I can do it without stretching the interpretation.

You can have whatever opinion you have and I won't stop you nor could I nore would I want to be able to. But, again my opinion, it will lead you to draw false conclusions.

 

[Dr.Who]

Sure, the people and places have been proved, but not all the garbage people have been trying to convince me of about why natural evil exists. That is just made up in someones head and preached to everyone else.

How do we know that physicists are right about things? Pragmatics. What they say fits with reality and is useful for making predictions about what other observations we can make about reality. In other words because they are right we trust more and more that they will always be right. Even though there is constant refinement of the scientific theories.

The same can be said about the Bible. If you approach it pragmatically you will find that what it says happened really happened whenever we can confirm it. What it says fits with reality and it is useful for making more observations about reality. In other words because it is right we can trust it more and more that it will always be right. Even though we are constantly making refinements in our interpretation of it.

For this pragmatic understanding of both science and the bible we have created an inductive logical statment. They have been right so they will be right. Obviously for both science and the bible this is not proof and they could be proven wrong at any time (unless the bible is written by God). But so far the bible stands up to the scrutiny of people who are honest with themselves. There are many things that are right, there are things that are untested or untestable, and there are no things in which every interpretation is wrong (even though there are some interpretations that have been proven wrong - just like science).

 

[Federal Farmer]

Sure, the people and places have been proved, but not all the garbage people have been trying to convince me of about why natural evil exists. That is just made up in someones head and preached to everyone else.

If I'm understanding you correctly, "natural evil", as far as we humans are concerned, is a fact, and exists in all of us. We have to be taught how to cooperate as members of a group, that lying, cheating, stealing, murder, and all of the other things that we do naturally are a bad thing in a society. The teachings of all of the various religions in the world, with small variations, insist that everyone comport themselves roughly along the same lines of conduct, and these rules go all the way back to the earliest civilizations when the people were worshiping rocks, trees, and the wind (if you do (insert your favorite sin here) the wind god will be angered and he will blow over that tree and crush your head on that rock!).

If you're talking about "natural evil" in reference to natural disasters and the like, what other term or terms would you have used, given the time and educational level of the people who originated the stories? Take the story of Job for instance. Other than "evil", what other possible verbiage would you have used to describe the deaths of his entire family through a "natural disaster", the boils, and all of the other "evil" that befell him?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

My apologies, There were multiple parts of my posts getting mixed up together.

of course there is only one God and therefore one personality according to mainstream Christianity.

Within that various people do have their pet theories.

Neverthless your undertanding appears to be quite warped. If you find Christians who share your understanding then I would say that their understanding is warped too. That is my opinion. I can back it up with bible verses and I can do it without stretching the interpretation.

You can have whatever opinion you have and I won't stop you nor could I nore would I want to be able to. But, again my opinion, it will lead you to draw false conclusions.

And all those Christians would throw out bible versus and say you are wrong


And I would sit back while you fight thinking, if there is a God, save me from your followers.

I am not a Christian in any sense.

 

[9sublime]

How do we know that physicists are right about things? Pragmatics. What they say fits with reality and is useful for making predictions about what other observations we can make about reality. In other words because they are right we trust more and more that they will always be right. Even though there is constant refinement of the scientific theories.

Science can be proved through observation and experience. Whether or not God really exists cannot be proved just because Jesus said it to people.

The same can be said about the Bible. If you approach it pragmatically you will find that what it says happened really happened whenever we can confirm it. What it says fits with reality and it is useful for making more observations about reality. In other words because it is right we can trust it more and more that it will always be right. Even though we are constantly making refinements in our interpretation of it.

I agree, much of the Bible may be historically accurate e.g. the people and the places. However, accurate historical scripture does not neccessarily make it spiritually true too.

For this pragmatic understanding of both science and the bible we have created an inductive logical statment. They have been right so they will be right. Obviously for both science and the bible this is not proof and they could be proven wrong at any time (unless the bible is written by God). But so far the bible stands up to the scrutiny of people who are honest with themselves. There are many things that are right, there are things that are untested or untestable, and there are no things in which every interpretation is wrong (even though there are some interpretations that have been proven wrong - just like science).

Many things in the Bible are untestable, such as, is it really the word of God, or just written by the gullable followers of a nutter who lived 2000 years ago.

There is no proof that the Bible tells the truth about the existence of God. Whether or not science is always right or wrong does not change this.

 

[9sublime]

If I'm understanding you correctly, "natural evil", as far as we humans are concerned, is a fact, and exists in all of us. We have to be taught how to cooperate as members of a group, that lying, cheating, stealing, murder, and all of the other things that we do naturally are a bad thing in a society. The teachings of all of the various religions in the world, with small variations, insist that everyone comport themselves roughly along the same lines of conduct, and these rules go all the way back to the earliest civilizations when the people were worshiping rocks, trees, and the wind (if you do (insert your favorite sin here) the wind god will be angered and he will blow over that tree and crush your head on that rock!).

This is moral evil, not natural evil.

If you're talking about "natural evil" in reference to natural disasters and the like, what other term or terms would you have used, given the time and educational level of the people who originated the stories? Take the story of Job for instance. Other than "evil", what other possible verbiage would you have used to describe the deaths of his entire family through a "natural disaster", the boils, and all of the other "evil" that befell him?

Explain to me why God would create a world capable of creating the boxing day tsunami. There is nothing logical, rational, reasonable or beneficial about it for an all loving, all power and all knowing God.

 

[Federal Farmer]

This is moral evil, not natural evil.

But "evil" is natural, morals are a learned behavior,

Explain to me why God would create a world capable of creating the boxing day tsunami. There is nothing logical, rational, reasonable or beneficial about it for an all loving, all power and all knowing God.

There's "nothing logical, rational, reasonable, or beneficial about it", as far as you know. Take the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, was there anything "logical, rational, reasonable, or beneficial" about that?

 

[Federal Farmer]

There is no proof that the Bible tells the truth about the existence of God. Whether or not science is always right or wrong does not change this.

There is no proof that science tells the truth about the existance of God. Whether or not the Bible is always right or wrong does not change this.

 

[9sublime]

But "evil" is natural, morals are a learned behavior,

I'm talking about evil that comes about regardless of what humans do e.g. hurricans, tsunamis, earthquakes etc.

There's "nothing logical, rational, reasonable, or beneficial about it", as far as you know. Take the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, was there anything "logical, rational, reasonable, or beneficial" about that?

I'm not the one whos under scrutiny, because I am not a believer in God. It is you who needs to defend your faith in a God who seems to have created a world that has unreasonable, illogical, irrational and destructive events occuring in it.

Why are they occuring if God is powerful enough to stop it, apparently all loving and all seeing? He knows its there and he doesn't want it, yet he allows it when he could stop it.

Doesn't it make you question whether or not he exists?

 

[numinus]

I'm talking about evil that comes about regardless of what humans do e.g. hurricans, tsunamis, earthquakes etc.

I'm not the one whos under scrutiny, because I am not a believer in God. It is you who needs to defend your faith in a God who seems to have created a world that has unreasonable, illogical, irrational and destructive events occuring in it.

Why are they occuring if God is powerful enough to stop it, apparently all loving and all seeing? He knows its there and he doesn't want it, yet he allows it when he could stop it.

Doesn't it make you question whether or not he exists?

In short, you are asking why the human condition was created as it is?

Because god is CREATING good from what is ostensibly, evil. And is it not precisely in failure that we somehow learn. Is it not in adversity that the human spirit is revealed?

 

[Federal Farmer]

I'm talking about evil that comes about regardless of what humans do e.g. hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes etc.

GREAT! Now that we've established that, on to the rest.

I'm not the one whos under scrutiny, because I am not a believer in God. It is you who needs to defend your faith in a God who seems to have created a world that has unreasonable, illogical, irrational and destructive events occuring in it.

I don't have to "defend" anything. You raised the question as a direct attempt at a poke in the eye of people of faith, in order to try to justify your own feelings of inadequacy and your endless search for meaning in this world. If anyone needs to be defending anything, it's you, and your unreasonable, illogical, irrational and self destructive attitude toward people who really don't give a rip what you do, or do not, believe.

Look, it's real simple, nobody cares if you believe or not, so go back to school and study Civil Engineering, that way you can learn how to build a bridge and get over yourself.

Why are they occuring if God is powerful enough to stop it, apparently all loving and all seeing? He knows its there and he doesn't want it, yet he allows it when he could stop it.

You're operating under the delusional belief that God is some sort of middle management level micro-manager. He's not. You're also assuming that what you perceive to be something terrible (not that it isn't for those caught in the middle of it) is a "bad thing", when in fact, in the bigger picture, it may be totally necessary.

Doesn't it make you question whether or not he exists?

Nope.