Realization of Utopias?

[Friendindeed]

I said "they did not settle disputes so peacefully among themselves though"

Well of course not..

Excuse me but your quote just said that they did.

but I still stand by the claim that they had a pretty good society in place. Unfortunately it is one which history books often neglect--in my opinion it was more Utopian like than the succeeding republic ever has been.

On the contrary the present day history books bend over backwords to idealize their society. Part of the "celebrating diversity" bs.

 

[Koios]

How nations handle disputes should not be confused with the way individuals handle disputes, especially in the context of utopias. Native tribes fought nearly constantly among other tribes (as we do) and their leaders assumed their leadership positions when all challengers were either dead or lying on their backs in submission (which we certainly do not).

You simply can't paint the native americans into anything resembling utopia unless your vision of utopia is no medicine, short life spans, non existant sanitation, and never ending violence.

I have already mentioned this, but I will repeat it, I do not believe a Utopia is confined to just the treatment of your own citizens. Also, the mere nature of precolonial civilization made it easier to coexist--there was literally enough land for everyone so not as many tribal wars had to be fought.



Friendindeed, I was acknowledging the fact that they were not perfect so they were bound to have some disputes but overall they handled disputes better than the colonist who just slaughtered them. However, I welcome you and palerider to provide some piece of evidence that will refute my own citation.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Got to give you credit for a great reply palerider.

It is a great reply but it was about capitalism, whereas what I had mentioned was "runaway capitalism".

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Btw Lilly, what would YOU say the closest the world has come to a Utopia is?

I'm sorry I meant to reply to this earlier
.
I have gaps in my knowledge of history so I can't pretend to be selecting from out of all societies ...

and I don't think there is such a thing as utopia on earth (subjective psychic states being a different thing)...

but out of all of the societies I've heard of, I think the one in Hawaii between 300 AD til the time Europeans started living there would be the closest.

Big contributors to that would be the lovely temperate climate and lush vegetation, and the way the people lived.

 

[palerider]

I have already mentioned this, but I will repeat it, I do not believe a Utopia is confined to just the treatment of your own citizens. Also, the mere nature of precolonial civilization made it easier to coexist--there was literally enough land for everyone so not as many tribal wars had to be fought.

It is true that there was plenty of land, but they fought constantly among themselves none the less. The fights weren't about land because no one owned the land, the fights were over women, for slaves, for food, for the right to hunt a particular area for supplies. They fought literally for the food they ate and for the glory it afforded. Look into history at the number of lost tribes in the US. It probably won't occur to the PC'ers that the weren't actually lost but killed or enslaved to the last child but that was the fate of most.

 

[palerider]

It is a great reply but it was about capitalism, whereas what I had mentioned was "runaway capitalism".

runaway captialism is a myth, like the peaceful rule of spain by islam. Capitalism is what it is. You either have capitalism or you have regulated capitalism.

 

[palerider]

but out of all of the societies I've heard of, I think the one in Hawaii between 300 AD til the time Europeans started living there would be the closest.

Big contributors to that would be the lovely temperate climate and lush vegetation, and the way the people lived.

The folks that ate captian cook?

 

[Lilly Marlene]

The folks that ate captian cook?

Will you quit !!!

Anyway about the capitalism: are you indicating that you would prefer capitalism with nothing in place to take care of the weak and of the environment ?

I'm afraid I may not get back to this very soon; please see the thread I am going to create about that ...I guess I will call it "Spring Break".

But I'd like to get back to this as time permits.

 

[vyo476]

runaway captialism is a myth, like the peaceful rule of spain by islam. Capitalism is what it is. You either have capitalism or you have regulated capitalism.

Unregulated capitalism is what gave us lovely gentlemen like Carnegie and Morgan. That's what Lily is talking about - the tendency in an entirely unregulated capitalist society for a few men to come to control the majority of the wealth. There you have the strong ruling over the weak in a static situation where nothing short of an economic crash (read: natural disaster) can topple those on top. The only way they can bring about their own downfall is through gross misjudgment or mistake - and how is that unlike an Indian chief, who, through an error in fighting (not getting enough sleep, etc.) loses to a technically inferior opponent?

 

[palerider]

Unregulated capitalism is what gave us lovely gentlemen like Carnegie and Morgan. That's what Lily is talking about - the tendency in an entirely unregulated capitalist society for a few men to come to control the majority of the wealth. There you have the strong ruling over the weak in a static situation where nothing short of an economic crash (read: natural disaster) can topple those on top. The only way they can bring about their own downfall is through gross misjudgment or mistake - and how is that unlike an Indian chief, who, through an error in fighting (not getting enough sleep, etc.) loses to a technically inferior opponent?

If you couild magically take every cent away from every person in the country and redistribute it equally among all the citizens of this country, in 5 years, those who are rich today would be rich again, and those who are poor today would be poor again. Some people have an aptitude for success and some don't.

And most of the people who have earned their fortunes, have also lost them at least once and rebuilt.

 

[Justinian]

Hmm

Utopia is a pipe dream but good old oscar does reveal much about himself with that statement. It is possible for it to exist for some, but since everyone has a different idea of what it is, there is no one place that will be utopia for everyone who lives there. Nazi Germany was utopia for some. The soviet union was utopia for those at the top of the pecking order. Even mao's china was utopia for a select few.

I believe that the closest the world has ever come to utopia for all was the US before we gave government permission to interfere in every aspect of our lives.

Freedom from government intrusion in my life would constitute utopia for me? Does your vision of utopia require that I give up mine in order for yours to be realized?

Never a truer Word spoken. IMO, the example of the perfect country to live in was America in the 1950's. Just...absolutely..........Perfect.