Religion of Peace At It Again

Peter claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (ie all non-Christians) must be killed. Acts 3:23

And if there were any Christian using this verse to justify killing anybody, I would criticize their religion as well. And I believe most all christians interpret

"23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people."

to refer to when Jesus comes back. Revelations, fire and brimstone and all of that. Its not instructing anybody, its a prophecy of what will be.
 
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Notice how Hollyweird can never bring itself to portray terrorists as islamofascists? Just saw Bruce Willis in "Live free or die hard" - naturally, it was a white guy chief terrorist. The last movie I saw about terrorists was back in 2002, "The sum of all fears". In their PC religion to avoid portraying islamist killers, the terrorists are neo-nazis!! Yaaaa - we all know how much trouble those guys have been lately! :D
 
Yeah, I never made any claims about every muslim either. He is an apologist though.

I am not an apologist. The point I am trying to make is that non-violent Muslims who live productive lives dont deserve to get slated for terrorist attacks. I am also saying that radical Islam and peaceful Islam are two different religions.

However... in practice if you follow a religion and people do something in the name of your religion that is bad, you are going to have to expect to get abuse for it, even if it is unfair. I WILL NEVER APOLOGISE FOR AN ORGANIZED RELIGION, I just feel sorry for them.
 
However... in practice if you follow a religion and people do something in the name of your religion that is bad, you are going to have to expect to get abuse for it, even if it is unfair.

When a Christian committs a violence in the name of Christianity, Christian leaders immediately come out and publicly denounce the action and state explicitly that Christianity is not a religion of violence. I just don't see muslim leaders coming out to denounce the actions of islam. Perhaps one here or there, but the general silence speaks volumes.

In any court of law 9sublime, SILENCE IMPLIES CONSENT and that being the case, it is not unfair that those who aren't out bombing be stained by the actions of those who are.
 
I WILL NEVER APOLOGISE FOR AN ORGANIZED RELIGION, I just feel sorry for them.

I have seen you only defend Islam in the face of any criticism and only criticize christianity. Can you point to ANY example where this is not the case?
 
I don't defend Islam, you need to understand this. I defend innocent Muslims on the basis that they have done nothing wrong. Islam is another organized religion.

This one is for you Palerider, it sums it up better than I could:

Exploding the myth of Muslim silence
That's the purpose of an interesting piece by Stephen Schwartz, author of "The Two Faces of Islam."

In it he argues that the media ignores moderate Muslims while covering the radicals in lavish, horrific detail, painting a distorted picture of the faith. The centerpiece of the article is a deconstruction of coverage of the plot to attack Fort Dix. He notes that the plotters weren't, as first assumed, Kosovo Albanian Muslims. They were, instead, ethnic Albanians from Macedonia who came here as children and were radicalized in Arab-dominated Wahhabi mosques. His point is that the media misses distinctions between different kinds of Muslims, lumping peaceful, moderate Albanians in with violent Wahhabis.

He then cites several examples of Muslim commentary on the case -- all of it condemning the plot -- that he says got scant coverage.

I didn't follow the Fort Dix story closely enough to judge whether he's right on that score, but the piece once again points up the intellectual bankruptcy of those who demand that Muslims "speak out" against terror. Continuing to make that argument ignores several relevant facts:

1. They do. All the time. I've cited multiple examples in the past year.

2. Demands that Muslims take the lead assume that moderate Muslims have some sort of connection to (or influence over) the extremists. What are (for example) American Muslims supposed to do: Call up Al-Qaeda and yell at them? They don't have AQ's number any more than you or I do, nor will their words be heeded any more than yours or mine.

3. Few groups spend a lot of time flagellating themselves for the extremists in their midst.

Let's expand on that last point for a moment because it's an important one, tied in with assumptions about group identity that simply are not true.

The underlying logic of the "Muslims must denounce terrorism" goes as follows: The terrorists are Islamic, and therefore Muslims have a particular duty to denounce Islamic terror.

This is reasonable to an extent: disavowing the nutjobs operating under your banner is sometimes necessary.

But where it goes off the rails is when people demand that every Muslim denounce every act of Islamic terror every time one occurs.

This is ridiculous. Every time a Christian commits murder, are Christians obligated to go on television and state the obvious -- that murder is wrong and the offender doesn't represent Christian views?

Of course not. They can simply state once (or occasionally) that murder is wrong and unChristian. Actually, they don't even have to do that; it's considered obvious that murder is wrong, so they aren't required to say anything. Silence is not assent in such cases.

So why are Muslims treated differently? Because groups are always good at pointing out the mote in other groups' eyes, even while giving their own members the benefit of the doubt. Do conservatives regularly call out nutjob conservatives? No. Liberals do that, and conservatives disavow them if necessary. Do liberals regularly call out liberal nutjobs? No; conservatives do that, and then liberals disavow them if necessary.

In this country, who spends time identifying atheist/agnostic misbehavior? Believers. Who are most likely to point out believer wrongdoing? Atheists/agnostics.

Simply put, groups are horrible at policing their own, because doing so requires admitting some kinship between your own beliefs and those of the nutjobs -- admitting that your beliefs can be twisted to bad ends. No one likes doing that.

Beyond that, when you're in the group you know that the extremists are just that -- extremists, a tiny minority that do not represent the group as a whole. They are shunned, dismissed; psychologically, the majority separates themselves from the whackjobs to the point they no longer feel kinship with them -- and thus no particular responsibility to account for their actions. Hence Christians feel no particular need to respond every time a Christian misbehaves, and Muslims feel no particular need to respond every time a member of some fundamentalist sect detonates a car bomb.

This is especially true when the actions cross national and sectarian boundaries. Demanding that a mainstream American Muslim denounce fundamentalist terrorism is like demanding that Lutherans denounce the actions of Baptists -- or, more aptly, Christian Identity adherents. It's actually even sillier than that, because at least in the example above everyone involved is American. In the case of Islamic terror, we're demanding that American Muslims feel responsibility not just for another sect, but for another country and culture. So it's more like demanding that Lutherans apologize for the atrocities committed by the Lord's Resistance Army.

Now, political reality is a different matter, and not always fair; in this day and age, there is more political need for Muslims to speak out than there is for Christians. But that doesn't make demands that they do so any less illogical. Nor does it justify the assumptions made about them when they fail to speak up in any given instance.
 
I don't defend Islam, you need to understand this. I defend innocent Muslims on the basis that they have done nothing wrong. Islam is another organized religion.
......
Every time a Christian commits murder, are Christians obligated to go on television and state the obvious -- that murder is wrong and the offender doesn't represent Christian views?

Of course not. They can simply state once (or occasionally) that murder is wrong and unChristian. Actually, they don't even have to do that; it's considered obvious that murder is wrong, so they aren't required to say anything. Silence is not assent in such cases.

So why are Muslims treated differently?

uuuhhhh because what you call murder, Islam calls fighting for the cause of allah. This game where we pretend the real Islam is peace and the fundamentalist are a different religion that is not Islam, but instead "a religion cloaked under the same name" only compounds the problem. Instead of confronting the real problem, we instead blame the violence on the fact that they are poor and their governments are corrupt, or some such nonsense.
Christianity says "thou shall not kill". Islam says [4.92] "And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer".

[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.


2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah;
9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
 
jb_1430, The real truth needs to be made known concerning
the Muslim faith, and the state of Islam. I do believe that you
and I debated this same issue before, and I see that you have
returned back to it again.

jb_1430 said:
uuuhhhh because what you call murder,
Islam calls fighting for the cause of allah. This game where
we pretend the real Islam is peace and the
fundamentalist are a different religion that is not Islam

What game? The Muslim world is divided thats a fact. So why
force the entire religion to suffer for what a few believe in?
Here in America some salute the flag (which ends Under GOD).
So what's the difference fighting for something you believe in,
and using GOD's name in vain to do your dirty work?

You do NOT have to pretend nothing when it comes to Islam
being peaceful, and as far as the Fundamentalist or Extremists
is concerned they are Muslims but with a different viewpoint.

Don't take what I am saying wrong, due to the fact that I will
always defend my Muslim/Islam belief, but Islam is no different
then the United States, and until society stop taking sides
Religion will always be a touching subject.
 
jb_1430, The real truth needs to be made known concerning the Muslim faith, and the state of Islam.

"State of Islam"??? I provided 5 or 6 verses from the koran. They are what they are.

The Muslim world is divided thats a fact. So why
force the entire religion to suffer for what a few believe in?

Does the whole religion suffer when I quote the Koran? Must this remain hidden from the west?

Here in America some salute the flag (which ends Under GOD).
So what's the difference fighting for something you believe in,
and using GOD's name in vain to do your dirty work?

Well, we fight for Freedom and Democracy. A government by and for the people. Muslims are fighting so that "religion should be only for Allah". Some Qutb would be demonstrative.


Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom. ...

This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men. This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth. ...

Indeed, Islam has the right to take the initiative. Islam is not a heritage of any particular race or country; this is God's religion and it is for the whole world. It has the right to destroy all obstacles in the form of institutions and traditions which limit man's freedom of choice. It does not attack individuals nor does it force them to accept its beliefs; it attacks institutions and traditions to release human beings from their poisonous influences, which distort human nature and which curtail human freedom.
 
"State of Islam"??? I provided 5 or 6 verses from the koran. They are what they are.


Its so easy to find quotes that tell followers of Islam and Christianity to commit violence. IT JUST DEPENDS WETHER OR NOT YOU CHOOSE TO FOLLOW THEM. So many times people just use quotes, it does nothing to support or back up your argument. Its not big and its not clever!
 
When a Christian committs a violence in the name of Christianity, Christian leaders immediately come out and publicly denounce the action and state explicitly that Christianity is not a religion of violence. I just don't see muslim leaders coming out to denounce the actions of islam. Perhaps one here or there, but the general silence speaks volumes.

In any court of law 9sublime, SILENCE IMPLIES CONSENT and that being the case, it is not unfair that those who aren't out bombing be stained by the actions of those who are.

Many Muslim leaders have come out against terrorism and the killing of innocents in the name of Islam - just look at the world reaction to 9/11. A huge number of muslims condemned it as a perversion of their faith.

And you are wrong about Christians. When a Christian commits violence in the name of their religion - some denounce it, some DO NOT.
 
Exploding the myth of Muslim silence
http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2007/05...m-silence.html

That's the purpose of an interesting piece by Stephen Schwartz, author of "The Two Faces of Islam."

In it he argues that the media ignores moderate Muslims while covering the radicals in lavish, horrific detail, painting a distorted picture of the faith. The centerpiece of the article is a deconstruction of coverage of the plot to attack Fort Dix. He notes that the plotters weren't, as first assumed, Kosovo Albanian Muslims. They were, instead, ethnic Albanians from Macedonia who came here as children and were radicalized in Arab-dominated Wahhabi mosques. His point is that the media misses distinctions between different kinds of Muslims, lumping peaceful, moderate Albanians in with violent Wahhabis.

He then cites several examples of Muslim commentary on the case -- all of it condemning the plot -- that he says got scant coverage.

I didn't follow the Fort Dix story closely enough to judge whether he's right on that score, but the piece once again points up the intellectual bankruptcy of those who demand that Muslims "speak out" against terror. Continuing to make that argument ignores several relevant facts:

1. They do. All the time. I've cited multiple examples in the past year.

2. Demands that Muslims take the lead assume that moderate Muslims have some sort of connection to (or influence over) the extremists. What are (for example) American Muslims supposed to do: Call up Al-Qaeda and yell at them? They don't have AQ's number any more than you or I do, nor will their words be heeded any more than yours or mine.

3. Few groups spend a lot of time flagellating themselves for the extremists in their midst.

Let's expand on that last point for a moment because it's an important one, tied in with assumptions about group identity that simply are not true.

The underlying logic of the "Muslims must denounce terrorism" goes as follows: The terrorists are Islamic, and therefore Muslims have a particular duty to denounce Islamic terror.

This is reasonable to an extent: disavowing the nutjobs operating under your banner is sometimes necessary.

But where it goes off the rails is when people demand that every Muslim denounce every act of Islamic terror every time one occurs.

This is ridiculous. Every time a Christian commits murder, are Christians obligated to go on television and state the obvious -- that murder is wrong and the offender doesn't represent Christian views?

Of course not. They can simply state once (or occasionally) that murder is wrong and unChristian. Actually, they don't even have to do that; it's considered obvious that murder is wrong, so they aren't required to say anything. Silence is not assent in such cases.

So why are Muslims treated differently? Because groups are always good at pointing out the mote in other groups' eyes, even while giving their own members the benefit of the doubt. Do conservatives regularly call out nutjob conservatives? No. Liberals do that, and conservatives disavow them if necessary. Do liberals regularly call out liberal nutjobs? No; conservatives do that, and then liberals disavow them if necessary.

In this country, who spends time identifying atheist/agnostic misbehavior? Believers. Who are most likely to point out believer wrongdoing? Atheists/agnostics.

Simply put, groups are horrible at policing their own, because doing so requires admitting some kinship between your own beliefs and those of the nutjobs -- admitting that your beliefs can be twisted to bad ends. No one likes doing that.

Beyond that, when you're in the group you know that the extremists are just that -- extremists, a tiny minority that do not represent the group as a whole. They are shunned, dismissed; psychologically, the majority separates themselves from the whackjobs to the point they no longer feel kinship with them -- and thus no particular responsibility to account for their actions. Hence Christians feel no particular need to respond every time a Christian misbehaves, and Muslims feel no particular need to respond every time a member of some fundamentalist sect detonates a car bomb.

This is especially true when the actions cross national and sectarian boundaries. Demanding that a mainstream American Muslim denounce fundamentalist terrorism is like demanding that Lutherans denounce the actions of Baptists -- or, more aptly, Christian Identity adherents. It's actually even sillier than that, because at least in the example above everyone involved is American. In the case of Islamic terror, we're demanding that American Muslims feel responsibility not just for another sect, but for another country and culture. So it's more like demanding that Lutherans apologize for the atrocities committed by the Lord's Resistance Army.

Now, political reality is a different matter, and not always fair; in this day and age, there is more political need for Muslims to speak out than there is for Christians. But that doesn't make demands that they do so any less illogical. Nor does it justify the assumptions made about them when they fail to speak up in any given instance.
 
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