Taxation Is Robbery

Let's assume for a moment that I agree with you (as the fact that I do not would not be conducive to the request I am about to make). What is the totality of his argument? Could you sum it up for me in a few short sentences?

You want me to sum up one page of written material? ROTFL. He makes several points that lead to a conclusion. If you want to disprove his argument, then show where each of those points are in error, one by one.
 
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You want me to sum up one page of written material? ROTFL. He makes several points that lead to a conclusion. If you want to disprove his argument, then show where each of those points are in error, one by one.

Yes, I want you to sum up one page of written material. It is possible to sum up much larger bodies of work if necessary; one page shouldn't be too difficult.

Unless that's beyond your comprehensive skills, of course.
 
* If you examine anything being "done by government," you will find human beings doing whatever is being done. They may also use equipment and machinery, but the most important work is done by individual human beings. If you go to a school, you will not find any "government" that runs the school. You will find a principal, a number of administrative people, and several teachers - all individual human beings. No matter what government monopoly you examine, for example a police station, you will find that the important work is done by individual human beings. If you visit a military installation, or a court, or a jail, or a veterans hospital, or a road being built, you will find individual human beings doing the work.

Already there's a little bit of information left out. While the various tasks of government are completed by people, they are completed in a hierarchical organization - a group of individuals don't just show up, call themselves "government," and proceed to do whatever they want. There is order, structure, to the whole thing - and at the top of the structure are people that we elect to make the decisions.


* The fact that these human beings call themselves "government," does not imbue them with magical powers to do their jobs better than those individuals who do not call themselves "government."
* Furthermore, the fact that certain individuals organize themselves into an institution called "government," does not imbue them with magical powers to do their jobs better than those individuals who do not so organize themselves.
* In general, people who don't call themselves "government," can do anything humans can do, at least as well as people who call themselves "government."

There is no implication that the government is "better" than the people. The government is largely decided by the people (we elect people based on whether or not we agree with what they say they're going to do, and then if they don't do it we vote them out or if they go way outside the bounds of what we wanted we impeach them). The "magical powers" referenced here are simply the powers of the will of the people.

IDOLATRY

In Man and Superman George Bernard Shaw wrote, "Government is the organization of idolatry." The dictionary defines "idol" as:

* A representation or symbol of worship;
* A false god;
* A pretender or impostor;
* An object of passionate devotion;
* A false conception or fallacy.

An idolater is a worshipper of idols. Idolatry is the phenomenon of worshipping idols. What do we call the belief in the "magical power" of government? What about the belief that because people call themselves "government" - or they organize themselves into an institution called "government" - therefore they have "magical powers" to perform miracles? Superstition, perhaps?
I call belief in the power of government belief in representation and democracy. I believe that it's far from perfect but perfection is inherently impossible. There's no "magic" involved.

WE NEED PLANNING, COORDINATION, AND MANAGING

Certain "communal" activities need to be performed. For example, in a city certain things need to planned, coordinated, and managed. If you go to any city, you will find some human beings doing just this. They may use computers and other equipment, but the essential planning, coordination, and managing is always done by human beings. If you visit a large company, you will find the same thing. We absolutely do need planning, coordination, and managing. We have it. People do it.

We also need defense.

DO WE ALSO NEED COERCION, VIOLENCE, AND MONOPOLIES?

Generally, the people who call themselves "government" operate on a different basis from that of the people who don't call themselves "government." The following assumptions seem to underlie the behavior of the people who call themselves "government":

* We are the only ones qualified to do the things we do; therefore we must have a monopoly to do the things we do and no one else may do them.
* In particular, we must be the only ones who have a monopoly on legalized violence.
* Because we are so highly qualified, we can't persuade people to do what we want; therefore we must use coercion, violence, and armed police to force them to follow our orders.
* Because we are so highly qualified, we can't persuade people to pay for our wonderful services; therefore we must use coercion, violence, and armed police to force them to pay.
* Because we do our jobs so well, we must use coercion, violence, and armed police to force people to not compete with us.
* Some of our friends (who don't call themselves "government") are uniquely qualified to do the things they do (like doctors and other special-interest groups); therefore we grant them monopolies (licences), so they don't have to compete with unqualified quacks in a free market. Guess what this will do to medical costs - and the licence fees and campaign contributions we'll be able to collect!

These powers are granted to the government by the people. If the people saw fit to repeal them than we would elect representatives and senators who would introduce legislation that would remove each precept mentioned. The will of the majority is that "legalized violence" be government domain only. If it was only a small minority group being oppressed by the will of the majority than I would be completely and one hundred percent behind you; as it is everyone who is "oppressed" by this logic it makes no sense to me.

THE WEAKEST ARGUMENT FOR GOVERNMENT

If we don't have government there will be chaos, disorder, crime, poverty, illiteracy, homelessness, drug abuse, pollution, etc, etc.

Answer 1: How do you know? Answer 2: Such a list almost always consists of problems we already suffer from - in other words, if we have government there will be chaos, disorder, crime, poverty, illiteracy, homelessness, drug abuse, pollution, etc, etc.

The people who call themselves "government" need such problems in order to justify their jobs. It is in their interest to create such problems and make them worse. The worse the problems, the bigger the bureaucratic empires they create, the more money they get, the more power they obtain, the more people they control.

Studying the case of the collapse of the Somalian government might be a good idea. The idea the chaos is a result of anarchy is heavily supported there and generally it is the collapse of government, not the rapid scaling back of government, that people associate chaos with. Whether or not "chaos" should be associated with Libertarianism is another matter altogether.


The bigger the government, the greater the problems. A politician like Bush may say that he will reduce government and lower taxes because he thinks it will help him get re-elected. In practice Bush has greatly increased his own bureaucratic empire. His administration has expanded government regulation with abandon. He promised, "Read my lips, no new taxes," and then raised taxes. Under Bush, deficit spending has ballooned out of control.

You'll find no new argument from me here; this is why we refer to George Bush as a neocon rather than a conservative.


PROBLEMS ARE SOLVED BY PEOPLE, NOT BY GOVERNMENTS.

Once you realize that governments consist of people, and that whatever is being done is done by individual human beings - even though they may use machines and equipment - then it becomes embarrassingly obvious that only people can solve problems. The entire notion that government can or should do anything becomes quite absurd.

In their book Breakthrough Thinking, Gerald Nadler and Shozo Hibino write that "an organization, as a collective body, can't approach a problem." They have a section on "political and governmental horrors." They indicate that politics and government "are the graveyards of misbegotten problem solving." Politicians and bureaucrats have three basic types of "solutions":

* Pass a law.
* Throw money at the problem.
* Appoint a committee to study the problem.

In terms of problem-solving methodology, all three types are at best inefficient.

And what of issues too large for singular individuals to deal with? In terms of national defense America faces a world with lots of enemies with things like nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons at their disposal, as well as fleets of naval vessels and jet aircraft and armored infantry units like tanks. How do unorganized individuals combat these threats?


I would go further and suggest that as soon as people call themselves "government," there is a considerable probability that they acquire some kind of "magical power in reverse" - they somehow become less able to solve problems. Nadler and Hibino say that, "Government is operated mainly by bureaucrats, and bureaucrats' classic criterion in decision making is not fulfillment of project purposes but protection of their jobs."

Pure bureaucrats are a necessity for hierarchical organization. Too many of the fowl up the process eventually but a few are general necessities. Of course, it is easy to vilify them if you are already vilifying the entire concept of hierarchical organization, so I suppose this is a moot point.

There. That's not every point in the article so I guess I once again disregarded the "totality" of it. I did not respond to, for instance, the section at the end about good people in government - largely because I believe that yes, people could be just as successful outside of government than inside it.

Was this what you'd had in mind, Truth-Bringer?
 
Yes, I want you to sum up one page of written material. It is possible to sum up much larger bodies of work if necessary; one page shouldn't be too difficult.

Unless that's beyond your comprehensive skills, of course.

LOL. It's beyond your comprehensive skills of course, but it's really very simple.

The basic point is - the people that make up government are no different than the people who are not in government. Therefore if you say the people outside of government can't be trusted, then you're also saying the same of people in government.

Which supports my view that we need more protections to punish government officials who abuse their positions, and we don't need to give government any power to limit the inalienable rights of people to pursue peaceful, honest, voluntary activities.
 
LOL. It's beyond your comprehensive skills of course, but it's really very simple.

The basic point is - the people that make up government are no different than the people who are not in government. Therefore if you say the people outside of government can't be trusted, then you're also saying the same of people in government.

Which supports my view that we need more protections to punish government officials who abuse their positions, and we don't need to give government any power to limit the inalienable rights of people to pursue peaceful, honest, voluntary activities.

I apologize for the dig at your comprehensive skills. I'd have to ask though: was it really necessary to "roll on the floor laughing" when I asked you to do this? Oh, and I checked through the thread...you at no point stated (here in this thread, anyway) that last paragraph I just quoted above. When writing persuasively it's generally a good idea to state your position on a particular thing first (we refer to this as the thesis) and then provide your support, rather than the other way around.
 
I apologize for the dig at your comprehensive skills. I'd have to ask though: was it really necessary to "roll on the floor laughing" when I asked you to do this?

I laughed because you must be pretty lazy to feel the need to avoid analyzing a one page article.

Oh, and I checked through the thread...you at no point stated (here in this thread, anyway) that last paragraph I just quoted above.

I know - because generally I assume people can get a simple point.

When writing persuasively

I'm not attempting to persuade you. I recognize that some people are beyond persuasion - due to Cognitive Dissonance, the Semmelweis Reflex, or some other deeply ingrained thinking error.
 
Well, the government does need to get fund from somewhere. And since the government is part of our society, we aren't really getting robbed.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

It is not neccessarily immoral for government to compulse taxes. But they certainly can compulse them immoraly and they often do. To the extent that the secular gov is instituted by God it will be moral.

The government that governs the least governs best.

Less taxes are better than more.

Taxing for things that don't absolutley need to be taxed is also wrong.
 
Taxation Is Robbery

by Frank Chodorov

[From Out of Step: The Autobiography of an Individualist, by Frank Chodorov; The Devin-Adair Company, New York, 1962, pp. 216–239.]

THE Encyclopaedia Britannica defines taxation as "that part of the revenues of a state which is obtained by the compulsory dues and charges upon its subjects." That is about as concise and accurate as a definition can be; it leaves no room for argument as to what taxation is. In that statement of fact the word "compulsory" looms large, simply because of its ethical content. The quick reaction is to ques*tion the "right" of the State to this use of power. What sanc*tion, in morals, does the State adduce for the taking of property? Is its exercise of sovereignty sufficient unto itself?

The government is merely an appendage of the body politic - the perfect union of all the individuals in the political association and who alone, possesses sovereign will.

An individual has a dual role in the political organization - he is both an integral and inseparable part of the whole, hence sharing in the sovereign will, and at the same time being subject to it.

It couldn't be robbery because the taxes he invests in the 'common wealth' is invested on himself at the same time.

On this question of morality there are two positions, and never the twain will meet. Those who hold that political institutions stem from "the nature of man," thus enjoying vicarious divinity, or those who pronounce the State the key*stone of social integrations, can find no quarrel with taxa*tion per se; the State's taking of property is justified by its being or its beneficial office. On the other hand, those who hold to the primacy of the individual, whose very existence is his claim to inalienable rights, lean to the position that in the compulsory collection of dues and charges the State is merely exercising power, without regard to morals.

The state of nature dictates that one is entitled to everything that he can procure with his own powers. This is the state of perfect liberty. But, as anyone can see, the state of perfect liberty is an unsecure existence, hence intolerable.

The solution is the social contract.

The present inquiry into taxation begins with the second of these positions. It is as biased as would be an inquiry starting with the similarly unprovable proposition that the State is either a natural or a socially necessary institution. Complete objectivity is precluded when an ethical postu*late is the major premise of an argument and a discussion of the nature of taxation cannot exclude values.

When one exists in close proximity with others, as is the fundamental condition to our social nature, the perfect liberty of one would necessarily collide with the perfect liberty of another leading to the annihilation of all. In much the same way as cars travelling on a road would crash in themselves without the benefit of traffic rules.

If we assume that the individual has an indisputable right to life, we must concede that he has a similar right to the enjoyment of the products of his labor. This we call a property right.

To enjoy the products of one's labor, one must first be in possession of it. One cannot ensure possession of anything without the force of the community.

The absolute right to property follows from the original right to life because one without the other is meaningless; the means to life must be identified with life itself.

Private property is an invention that was brought about by the discorvery of agriculture and the shift from a nomadic to sedentary existence. It is not absolute.

If the State has a prior right to the products of one's labor, his right to existence is qualified.

No. His right to property is qualified, not his existence.

Aside from the fact that no such prior right can be established, except by declaring the State the author of all rights, our inclination (as shown in the effort to avoid paying taxes) is to reject this concept of priority.

This is the consequence of assuming that the right to property is absolute, and that the right to life is contingent on this.
 
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