The biblical conundrum

[GenSeneca]

48% of america believe homosexuality is a moral wrong...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/108115/americans-evenly-divided-morality-homosexuality.aspx

That's supposed to support your claim that we have a widespread problem in America with Christians running around violating people's rights?

They certainly were punished but the causal agent of the action is still out there, a fundamentalist interpretation of biblical law.

I don't know of a single Christian on this board who falls into that category. If your problem is with "Christians" like the Westboro Baptists, then you should take your crusade against religious fundamentalism to them, and only them, leave all the other Christians alone.

Belief begats action Gen...

Only physical actions can violate rights. People have a right to believe anything they want, no matter how hateful or vile you might think their beliefs might be. What they do not have a right to do is violate the rights of others. Are you advocating for some kind of Totalitarian "Thought Police" State to eradicate thoughts and beliefs you disagree with as a way of preventing the violation of rights?

How many homosexual individuals have been harassed into suicide from speech exactly like that? They fill their children's head w/ this poison and then they bring it into the school. How many children must slit their wrists before it becomes an issue I am allowed to address?

Your harassment of the Christians on this board does nothing to "address" that issue. Besides, if there were Christian children slitting their wrists because of constant harassment from Anti-Theist thugs, you'd be lamenting that it didn't work on Christian adults too.

Again you have not drawn the line from speaking out against an archaic version of christianity as it negatively influences society to hating christians.

Wouldn't it be hateful of me to mock gays, to ridicule them, to call them names, to harass them, and lump them in with gays who committed horrific acts of violence? You have mocked, ridiculed, name called, harassed, and stereotyped Christians since the beginning of this thread. So while I doubt I could ever prove to you that you've been hateful, because you only see it in others but not yourself, you've already proven it to everyone else.

 

[Apathy]

That's supposed to support your claim that we have a widespread problem in America with Christians running around violating people's rights?

I figured you would be honest about the influence of the beliefs... My mistake I should have known better.
Matthew Shepard ?
Bombing abortion clinics?
Killing doctors who perform abortions?
The 80killed in the norway shooting?
Forcing children to pray at graduation? (Public highschools)
Forcing children to pledge allegiance to god and country every morning

I don't know of a single Christian on this board who falls into that category. If your problem is with "Christians" like the Westboro Baptists, then you should take your crusade against religious fundamentalism to them, and only them, leave all the other Christians alone.

Maybe you haven't noticed several of them just recently have wished to force abstinence only programs into schools and african nations ravaged with AIDS... This has dangerous and tangible consequences on the lives of others.

Only physical actions can violate rights. People have a right to believe anything they want, no matter how hateful or vile you might think their beliefs might be.

Certainly and I have the right to condemn the beliefs whether they be hateful, vile, or just f--king absurd.

What they do not have a right to do is violate the rights of others. Are you advocating for some kind of Totalitarian "Thought Police" State to eradicate thoughts and beliefs you disagree with as a way of preventing the violation of rights?

No I am advocating public discourse on the matter, this requires societal change not legislation.

Your harassment of the Christians on this board does nothing to "address" that issue. Besides, if there were Christian children slitting their wrists because of constant harassment from Anti-Theist thugs, you'd be lamenting that it didn't work on Christian adults too.

Attacking the homophobia at its roots does not address the issue? Sorry this is just wrong... Im not talking to children and criticism=/= harassment these are adults on a public forum... You hate me for what I am saying that is fine but you cannot lie and say you are the one that is being tolerant.

Wouldn't it be hateful of me to mock gays, to ridicule them, to call them names, to harass them, and lump them in with gays who committed horrific acts of violence? You have mocked, ridiculed, name called, harassed, and stereotyped Christians since the beginning of this thread. So while I doubt I could ever prove to you that you've been hateful, because you only see it in others but not yourself, you've already proven it to everyone else.

Homosexuality is not a doctrine so there is not connection there what so ever, Christianity is a doctrine and can be a doctrine of hate and violence.

Harassment? That is rich coming from you, after you have lobbed a whole slew of hateful words at me in the name of tolerance. Between the libelous unjustified accusations(none of which has been justified) and the vitriolic language you have used you have showed yourself to be a proper bigot.

 

[cashmcall]

The "religious right" tend to focus on just a few issues, including homosexuality, immigration, abortion, and stem cell research. These moral issues are often coupled with fiscal conservatism. So, the religious right comes across as being anti-people and pro-business, seemingly with more regard for their pocketbooks than with the lives of people. As in virtually all political movements, opponents of the religious right tend to portray the "enemy" in the worst light possible. Extremists are quoted liberally and presented as being representative of every conservative Christian.

While it is true that great suffering has been perpetrated by those in absolute power, it is not true that the majority of this suffering has come at the hands of Christians. The number of atrocities committed by those claiming to be Christians pales in comparison to those of atheists, who have only become a political force within the last one hundred years. The problem is, and always has been, the inherent evil present within each human being when given the absolute power do as they please."The radical Christian Right calls for exclusion, cruelty and intolerance in the name of God. Its members do not commit evil for evil's sake. They commit evil to make a better world. To attain this better world, they believe, some must suffer and be silenced and destroyed. The worst suffering in human history has been carried out by those who preach such grand, utopian visions, those who seek to implant by force their narrow, particular version of goodness. This is true for all doctrines of personal salvation, from Christianity to ethnic nationalism to communism to fascism. Dreams of a universal good create hells of persecution, suffering and slaughter.

Whatever Christians do or do not do regarding politics, the Bible does give limited advice to Christians. Both the apostles Paul and Peter advised that Christians should be obedient to governing authorities and submit to their rule. The Bible specifically addresses the issue of paying taxes, and commands Christians to do so. The only exception to submit to authority would be if the governing authorities commanded Christians to disobey God's laws, in which case Christians are told to obey God rather than men. Christians are advised to pray for all who are in authority.
The advice given by Paul and Peter was given at a time when the governing authorities were part of a totalitarian state. So, any rebellion would have been met with serious consequences (including execution). In fact, the historical record reveals that Christians were executed just for being Christians. So, in today's democracies, Christians would be expected to participate in a godly manner in the political process.

 

[Dr.Who]

I figured you would be honest about the influence of the beliefs... My mistake I should have known better.
Matthew Shepard ?
Bombing abortion clinics?
Killing doctors who perform abortions?
The 80killed in the norway shooting?
Forcing children to pray at graduation? (Public highschools)
Forcing children to pledge allegiance to god and country every morning
.

Start a thread on each one of those and I am confident that your arguments will be appropriately defeated.

 

[Apathy]

Start a thread on each one of those and I am confident that your arguments will be appropriately defeated.

Arguments? They go beyond opinion and argumentation.. These events are facts.

 

[Apathy]

The "religious right" tend to focus on just a few issues, including homosexuality, immigration, abortion, and stem cell research. These moral issues are often coupled with fiscal conservatism. So, the religious right comes across as being anti-people and pro-business, seemingly with more regard for their pocketbooks than with the lives of people.

I view social issues to be a completely different animal so to bring economic issue into this is very misguided.

As in virtually all political movements, opponents of the religious right tend to portray the "enemy" in the worst light possible. Extremists are quoted liberally and presented as being representative of every conservative Christian.

You mean the extremist like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson etc.. Who all have extremely large audiences? These 'extremists' are more indicative of the norm than you would lead people to believe. If you are not among them great but to say that this is a rare outlier in spite of the normal liberal theology is a practice in denying reality.

While it is true that great suffering has been perpetrated by those in absolute power, it is not true that the majority of this suffering has come at the hands of Christians. The number of atrocities committed by those claiming to be Christians pales in comparison to those of atheists, who have only become a political force within the last one hundred years.

Their is no logical connection between atheism and the actions of say Stalin. Atheism is the lack of a belief in deities no more his totalitarian ideas were the cause of his actions not a lack of belief.

The problem is, and always has been, the inherent evil present within each human being when given the absolute power do as they please.

People are not inherently evil cash... It is true power does have a corruptive force that seems to go with it. But to say if we were left to our own devices we would be slaughtering each other in the streets is absurd.

The radical Christian Right calls for exclusion, cruelty and intolerance in the name of God. Its members do not commit evil for evil's sake. They commit evil to make a better world. To attain this better world, they believe, some must suffer and be silenced and destroyed. The worst suffering in human history has been carried out by those who preach such grand, utopian visions, those who seek to implant by force their narrow, particular version of goodness. This is true for all doctrines of personal salvation, from Christianity to ethnic nationalism to communism to fascism. Dreams of a universal good create hells of persecution, suffering and slaughter.

Who commits evil for evil's sake? This attempt at profundity leaves a lot to be desired.

Whatever Christians do or do not do regarding politics, the Bible does give limited advice to Christians. Both the apostles Paul and Peter advised that Christians should be obedient to governing authorities and submit to their rule. The Bible specifically addresses the issue of paying taxes, and commands Christians to do so.

Do you deny the social laws within the bible? Those are quite extensive not limited.

The only exception to submit to authority would be if the governing authorities commanded Christians to disobey God's laws, in which case Christians are told to obey God rather than men. Christians are advised to pray for all who are in authority.

So if your beliefs were to conflict with societal regulations like taking your children to the doctors when they fall ill you would be required to disobey the law?

The advice given by Paul and Peter was given at a time when the governing authorities were part of a totalitarian state. So, any rebellion would have been met with serious consequences (including execution). In fact, the historical record reveals that Christians were executed just for being Christians. So, in today's democracies, Christians would be expected to participate in a godly manner in the political process.

Actually they were being executed because they were thought to be atheists.

 

[Cruella]

Who's winning over here?

 

[Dr.Who]

Arguments? They go beyond opinion and argumentation.. These events are facts.

Since you won't pick I will pick for you.

STart a thread on bombing abortion clinics and show us that Christians are responsible.

 

[TheJPRD]

Christians come in many flavours but for the purpose of this thread they fall into two categories
Those who believe the bible is a fax from God and thus literally true Those who think the bible needs to be interpreted and is largely allegorical
The first group have to believe that the sun goes round the earth which means they are mad
The second have no mechanism for determining who can accurately decode the bible, which bits are allegorical and why one interpretation is any more valid than another. This means they can't reliably accept any of the bible so using it as a manual for life means they are mad.Which group are you in?

Was your post intended to be serious? I couldn't tell. It seemed so childish, much like an 8-year-old trying to be intellectually creative, and failing miserably. I assume that you're an atheist? If so, it's fairly expected that you'd oversimplfy the intellectual-capacities of those who believe God exists. I've always found it amusing that so many atheists believe they're intellectually superior, simply because they don't believe in God. Many atheists are fond of telling us believers that we're "mad", though most are kind enough to just call us "unscientific". As with others of your unscientifc ilk, you've forgotten a basic principle of physics...... Something cannot be created from nothing! Since the universe obviously came from somewhere, and physics tell us that it didn't come from nothing, perhaps you can explain from where it did come??? Given the juvenile nature of your post, I'd guess that you'd argue for "spontaneous generation"? The next time you want to appear intellectuallly superior, perhaps you should do so in private!

 

[dogtowner]

Was your post intended to be serious? I couldn't tell. It seemed so childish, much like an 8-year-old trying to be intellectually creative, and failing miserably. I assume that you're an atheist? If so, it's fairly expected that you'd oversimplfy the intellectual-capacities of those who believe God exists. I've always found it amusing that so many atheists believe they're intellectually superior, simply because they don't believe in God. Many atheists are fond of telling us believers that we're "mad", though most are kind enough to just call us "unscientific". As with others of your unscientifc ilk, you've forgotten a basic principle of physics...... Something cannot be created from nothing! Since the universe obviously came from somewhere, and physics tell us that it didn't come from nothing, perhaps you can explain from where it did come??? Given the juvenile nature of your post, I'd guess that you'd argue for "spontaneous generation"? The next time you want to appear intellectuallly superior, perhaps you should do so in private!

yes he claimed to be atheist (while his namesake Dawkins will only claim agnostic)

 

[TheJPRD]

yes he claimed to be atheist (while his namesake Dawkins will only claim agnostic)

Agnostic, huh? Those are the folks who say they don't know if there is or isn't a God. Strange that he'd start right-off by calling those who do believe "mad", don't you think? Regardless, he fits the term "agnostic", the not-knowing part of the definition anyway! I hate giving these bigoted, juvenile-minded lefties the benefit of the doubt on anything! I used to be sympathetic, hoping they'd eventually grow a brain. Call me a "flaming optimist", they never do.

 

[GenSeneca]

Strange that he'd start right-off by calling those who do believe "mad", don't you think?

Dawkins and his buddy Apathy are not merely Atheists, they are Anti-Theists - They not only don't believe in God (Atheist), they actually oppose the belief in God (Anti-Theist).... You know... I'm curious... Another poster was puzzled to hear that I was an Atheist but that I was not a Leftists, he seemed to think that the two had to go together and found it difficult to believe there were "right-wing" Atheists.

I bet if we looked into it, we'd find that Anti-Theists are much more common on the Left while Atheists are much more common on the right. Communism being a great example of Leftist Anti-Theism, a political doctrine that actively seeks to stamp out Theism, and Laissez Faire Capitalism being a great example of Right Wing Atheism, a political doctrine that leaves people free to do, say, or believe anything they wish so long as it doesn't infringe on the Rights of others. Sorry to have digressed but that might be a topic worth discussing.

 

[Robert Berger]

To blame all the evils of comunism in the 20th century on atheism is just plain stupid . Stalin,Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and other murderous
communist leaders didn't slaughter millions of people because they were atheists, but because they were monstrously evil individuals
in the first place .
And countless millions of people have been killed in the name of religion over the ages . Islam is not a "religion of peace," but niether is Christianity .
Christian slaughtered countless innocent Muslims during the crusades, in the inquisition , and in th ewars between Catholics and Protestants etc.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[TheJPRD]

Dawkins and his buddy Apathy are not merely Atheists, they are Anti-Theists - They not only don't believe in God (Atheist), they actually oppose the belief in God (Anti-Theist).... You know... I'm curious... Another poster was puzzled to hear that I was an Atheist but that I was not a Leftists, he seemed to think that the two had to go together and found it difficult to believe there were "right-wing" Atheists.

I bet if we looked into it, we'd find that Anti-Theists are much more common on the Left while Atheists are much more common on the right. Communism being a great example of Leftist Anti-Theism, a political doctrine that actively seeks to stamp out Theism, and Laissez Faire Capitalism being a great example of Right Wing Atheism, a political doctrine that leaves people free to do, say, or believe anything they wish so long as it doesn't infringe on the Rights of others. Sorry to have digressed but that might be a topic worth discussing.

I hope that my post didn't offend you, Seneca. In re-reading it, I can see that it might be interpreted as reflecting my views about ALL atheists. That was not my intent. I've encountered quite a few atheists who've gained my respect for their courtesy towards those of faith, and equally important, for their very principled conduct in most all things. I believe that individuals can be highly moral without having a belief in God. If one views religions as "philosophies", I've known atheists who live what could easily be termed a "Christian lifestyle". Most all of those atheist friends are politically Conservative, with a few Libertarians thrown in for good measure.

Regarding your second paragraph above, I believe that most of us on the right consider human courtesy, good manners, self-control, and personal responsibilty great attributes! Although "morality" is often thought of in religious terms, it's equally reflective of a persons behavior patterns. Leftists are typically self-centered, lack self control, have no sense of personal responsibility, and always seem to demand something for nothing. We on the right, are smarter and nicer!

 

[TheJPRD]

To blame all the evils of comunism in the 20th century on atheism is just plain stupid . Stalin,Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and other murderous
communist leaders didn't slaughter millions of people because they were atheists, but because they were monstrously evil individuals
in the first place .

And countless millions of people have been killed in the name of religion over the ages . Islam is not a "religion of peace," but niether is Christianity .
Christian slaughtered countless innocent Muslims during the crusades, in the inquisition , and in th ewars between Catholics and Protestants etc.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Let's first look at the second paragraph in your post. It's time for another "learning moment" I see! You've got to be a lefty, for like most folks on the left, your comment is outrageously oversimplified. I suppose that leftist brains are incapable of understanding anything other than one-liners they heard from someone else, and that don't require any thought. Christianity IS a religion of peace, dummy! The principles of Christianity espoused by Christ can't be compared to anything except "peace". You're looking at historical acts by some who may have claimed to be Christians, but whose actions were NOT Christian. Blaming an entire religion for the acts of some who obviously had no clue what their claimed religion demanded of them is........ Dumb! Unlike Islam, there are few if any conflicting moral standards in Christian doctrine.

Now, let's take a look at the first paragraph in your post. What upset you about the oversimplified claims against atheists, was EXACTLY what you proceeded to claim about Christians in your second paragraph! Like intelligence, logic is not a leftwing trait!