US military kills civilians

Popeye

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Along with the rapes and outright murders, we have "accidental" shootings of civilians. How many times have we heard stories similar to this? How many more are we going to hear?
U.S. military kills civilians in Iraq, apologizes


* Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007



BAGHDAD — For the second day in a row, U.S. soldiers on Tuesday killed Iraqi civilians when they fired on a vehicle that they thought was a threat, the U.S. military said.

The U.S. military also reported that two soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in Salah ad Din province. Two other soldiers were wounded. The military provided no further details on the incident and didn't release the names of the dead.

The shooting deaths of the civilians took place in the al Shaab neighborhood of northern Baghdad. Two people died and four were injured when an American soldier fired at a minibus that was transporting workers to a bank operated by the Iraqi Finance Ministry, the military said in a statement. But Iraqi police and employees at al Rasheed Bank said that four people were killed, including three women, and that two were injured.

The minibus was driving near a U.S. military outpost when it ended up on a road where only car traffic is permitted, the military said. American soldiers signaled the minibus to stop, and when it didn't, one of them fired a warning shot.

A military official familiar with the incident said the warning shot struck the pavement in front of the vehicle and broke apart, spraying the minibus with pieces. The official asked not to be named because he wasn't authorized to speak in detail about the incident.

A spokesman for U.S. forces in Iraq acknowledged the deaths of the civilians. "We regret when civilians are killed, and we do feel terrible about it," the spokesman, Maj. Brad Leighton, said. He said the incident was under investigation.

On Monday, a child and two men were killed when they rushed through a U.S. military roadblock while the military was conducting an operation in Bayji, north of Baghdad. U.S. soldiers opened fire on the vehicle; only when they searched the car did they discover the child inside.

The back-to-back incidents come as U.S. and Iraqi officials prepare to negotiate a treaty that will set new rules to govern U.S. military activities in Iraq. The announcement of the negotiations was part of a "declaration of principles" that Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki and President Bush signed on Monday.

Under the agreement, the U.N. authorization that permits U.S. troops to operate in the country will be extended for one final year. After that extension expires in December 2008, a U.S.-Iraq treaty will set the terms for continued U.S. operations.

Those terms are to be negotiated by July 31 and are likely to be influenced by growing Iraqi impatience with the deaths of civilians during U.S. military operations.

Maliki has long been a critic of civilian deaths and what he says are U.S. troops' breaches of Iraqi sovereignty. As recently as August, he criticized the U.S. military for raids in two Shiite neighborhoods in Baghdad that the U.S. said killed "eight terrorists" but that residents said killed and wounded civilians.

"There were big mistakes committed in these operations," Maliki said then. "The terrorist himself should be targeted, not his family."

On Tuesday, Saad Abdul Wahid, a bank employee, said he called one of the women aboard the minibus after he'd heard of the shooting from a colleague.

Through tears, she told him that the bus was hurrying to pick up passengers when a shot rang out from a nearby Humvee, he said. The driver tried to reverse. He couldn't, and before it was over four people were dead, she said.

"Nidhal, Ishraq, Um Tha'er and..." Wahid recalled her saying through tears, listing the names of the dead women. But before she could utter the last name, she broke into heavy sobs.

Wahid said that the woman told him that the minibus stopped because the driver was injured. An American soldier ran over and quickly realized what had happened.

"We are sorry; we are so sorry," the soldier said.

"Is sorry enough to bring back our friends to life?" Wahid asked. "They keep making their mistakes day by day and we are paying too much."
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/22207.html
 
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Attrocity? No.

I'd like to point out that in all these cases the Iraqis were violating traffic controls put in place by the US military. They disregarded US signals to stop and the US troops responded as per their Rules of Engagement.

In the US Army, you always have the right to protect yourself from harm. If I saw either of these vehicles doing as they did and I signalled them to stop but they kept moving, I would have fired and killed everyone on board if it meant protecting myself from a possible car bomb.
 
I'd like to point out that in all these cases the Iraqis were violating traffic controls put in place by the US military. They disregarded US signals to stop and the US troops responded as per their Rules of Engagement.

Hmmm... "violating traffic controls" ---penalty----death

There have been rapes, and outright murders of Iraqi civilians by US military personnel. One celebrated case of the rape of a young girl and the murder of her family, comes to mind. I assume you would like to justify that also. A deserved penalty for jaywalking perhaps? Possibly not treating their American occupiers with the proper deference? Is there anything that cannot be justified per your "Rules of Engagement"?
 
Over stating the truth/sensationising with no meaning

Hmmm... "violating traffic controls" ---penalty----death

There have been rapes, and outright murders of Iraqi civilians by US military personnel. One celebrated case of the rape of a young girl and the murder of her family, comes to mind. I assume you would like to justify that also. A deserved penalty for jaywalking perhaps? Possibly not treating their American occupiers with the proper deference? Is there anything that cannot be justified per your "Rules of Engagement"?

No,violating traffic controls:

Here's a standard series of actions in the case ofsomething trying to break through a traffic control point:

1. Signal for the driver to stop
2. Shout for the driver to stop
3. Gesture with weapon to get the driver to stop.
4. Fire a warning shot (this one happened, the soldier's shot richocheted)
5. If the driver still refuses to stop, use all neccessary force to protect yourself from harm.

The soldier's standing there didn't know that the drivers were driving civilians around. For all those soldiers knew those drivers were terrorists in car bombs using coerced civilians as shields in order to get close and kill US troops.

They responded exactly I would have. In battle, if the choice is between possibly killing a civilian in a car who has refused to stop even when I told him to, or possibly letting a suicide bomber get close and kill me and my friends and possibly other civilians, I will kill them every time.

The rape case is an extreme, as are the murders. They are not the standard thing in Iraq. I've been there, I've got many friends who have been there and we all agree that those that committed those attrocities should be sent to jail for rest of their lives. They are wrong.

The soldiers that accidently killed innocent people when they tried to run their checkpoints, did just that: accidently killing innocent people. But they were doing the right thing. They had to use the knowledge they had at the time to protect themselves and their buddies.

Rules of Engagement are designed to protect US troops and the civilians in the area they operate. But if civilians chose to act the same way a suicide bomber would, they should expect that we would respond the same.
 
If its between some hajj who might or might not be a threat to me or any of buddies and my own life, sorry hajj, your goin' down. Next time walk slower/stop when i tell you to/don't act suspicious/don't throw rocks at me.

Oh and **** you Popeye. Until you know what its like, you can kiss my ass.
 
If its between some hajj who might or might not be a threat to me or any of buddies and my own life, sorry hajj, your goin' down. Next time walk slower/stop when i tell you to/don't act suspicious/don't throw rocks at me.

Oh and **** you Popeye. Until you know what its like, you can kiss my ass.

Since you prefer to keep civility out of this , you're a punk General.
 
I dont think anyone is proud of this. I certainly am not. I dont think the people have used force to stop a vehicle that wasnt loaded with explosives enjoyed it.
But I will echo the earlier comments. When it comes to working a checkpoint, the Iraqis know damn well what the procedure is. They also know the consequences of not obeying them.

If I am working a checkpoint, and someone doesnt obey the rules, the US military has rules of engagement. Once those have been surpassed it is the responsibility of the soldier to engage with all means necessary. I would not hesitate to shoot under those circumstances and it is often far to easy to second guess those in that situation. Always remember, anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting twice.

As for the criminal issues such as Rape and outright murder. Those are shameful, but representative of a very small minority among those serving and the current military we have is very well behaved compared to other militaries and the US military in the past, especially with conscripts.

War is war. It is bloody, sad, and horrible. I wish it didnt have to be that way. But we through little choice of our own are in this place. Its a shame the newspapers arent interviewing the doctors and soldiers who are saving the lives of children in Iraq from non-combat causes.
 
General, refrain from the language, its pathetic and childish.

And also, your a confessed obsese war nerd, so how do you know what its like?
 
I dont think anyone is proud of this. I certainly am not. I dont think the people have used force to stop a vehicle that wasnt loaded with explosives enjoyed it.
But I will echo the earlier comments. When it comes to working a checkpoint, the Iraqis know damn well what the procedure is. They also know the consequences of not obeying them.

If I am working a checkpoint, and someone doesnt obey the rules, the US military has rules of engagement. Once those have been surpassed it is the responsibility of the soldier to engage with all means necessary. I would not hesitate to shoot under those circumstances and it is often far to easy to second guess those in that situation. Always remember, anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting twice.

As for the criminal issues such as Rape and outright murder. Those are shameful, but representative of a very small minority among those serving and the current military we have is very well behaved compared to other militaries and the US military in the past, especially with conscripts.

War is war. It is bloody, sad, and horrible. I wish it didnt have to be that way. But we through little choice of our own are in this place. Its a shame the newspapers arent interviewing the doctors and soldiers who are saving the lives of children in Iraq from non-combat causes.

Rape/Theft was MUCH more common during WW2. Even by our own troops.
 
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Civility? You should have thought about that before you accused our troops of being murderers and rapists.

I'm so sorry that I didn't check with you first, General, before posting a legitimate news story, accompanied by my opinion. I didn't expect it to be popular, casting our military in a bad light rarely is.

Others, however, managed to disagree without becoming uncivil. Apparently you have difficulty keeping your emotions in check. May I suggest, you try acting like a man as opposed to a punk.
 
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