What is the Trinity?

[Pandora]

Pandora, Thanks for your comments. It is true our church has interpret some verses in the Bible so there is little room for discussion. This applies to the Trinity which strangely most Protestants agree. I will look at this issue in another forum where there might be more disagreement.

I think it validates your church when you can get Protestants to agree with such important teachings that are more based from tradition and teachings from the church rather than scripture. Sabbath is another teaching that comes right from church teachings rather than scripture and most Protestants go along with the church here too. Most of the arguments you will get on things taught via the church instead of the scriptures is from Messianic like me.

 

[dogtowner]

The problem with a Mormon is much like Catholic. The bottom line is not the bible its another source like the book of mormon or for a Catholic the church teachings. Now a baptist is fun because they agree to only go by what scripture says. But first you have to fight about if you are going with the King James 1611 version or something else. That debate alone is very fun I get to drag out stuff they either didnt know about or dont want to hear

well trained Mormans (temple trained ones in particular some of whom I know personally) will only reference the Bible as they know the Book of Morman is a "fill in the blanks" thing. laymen, even though they were trained for their missions, can fail to do this. I have enjoyed prior discussions you were involved in where translation matters came up. Catholics have a problem in my view as they often cannot justify their dogma in scripture.

 

[Pandora]

well trained Mormans (temple trained ones in particular some of whom I know personally) will only reference the Bible as they know the Book of Morman is a "fill in the blanks" thing. laymen, even though they were trained for their missions, can fail to do this. I have enjoyed prior discussions you were involved in where translation matters came up. Catholics have a problem in my view as they often cannot justify their dogma in scripture.

Well I think with Catholics their faith in the Church is just as strong as their faith in God / Jesus. Actually I think it’s all the same thing. Jesus is the head of their Church so the same faith it takes to believe in scripture they put to the church and the teachings of them. I don’t agree with it but I respect it. I can’t stand Catholics like John Freaking Kerry (who served in Vietnam) He goes against his own church on a regular basis and I get so stinking mad at his church for giving him communion and ashes on ash Wednesday. I say don’t be a Catholic if you can’t do it right!


I like it when Mormons and JW's come to my door We always visit. Had the JW's here just this morning

 

[dogtowner]

Well I think with Catholics their faith in the Church is just as strong as their faith in God / Jesus. Actually I think it’s all the same thing. Jesus is the head of their Church so the same faith it takes to believe in scripture they put to the church and the teachings of them. I don’t agree with it but I respect it. I can’t stand Catholics like John Freaking Kerry (who served in Vietnam) He goes against his own church on a regular basis and I get so stinking mad at his church for giving him communion and ashes on ash Wednesday. I say don’t be a Catholic if you can’t do it right!


I like it when Mormons and JW's come to my door We always visit. Had the JW's here just this morning

agreed. there are plenty of alternatives so find one that suits and I think the RCC hurts itself with this selective ignoring of it's own rules. I realize they don't want to see thier numbers decline but right is right and wron g is wrong. they stay pretty consistent on the rules but not the application and thats as wrong in my eyes.

 

[Cruella]

I know what the trinity means to me in my head. All one but separate. God the creator set for us his exmple, the teacher Jesus and bridge to God, that resides (lives) within us through the holy ghost.

 

[Aus22]

agreed. there are plenty of alternatives so find one that suits and I think the RCC hurts itself with this selective ignoring of it's own rules. I realize they don't want to see thier numbers decline but right is right and wron g is wrong. they stay pretty consistent on the rules but not the application and thats as wrong in my eyes.

I am not sure what you mean dogtower. If it not about the trinity perhaps we could discuss it in another topic about the teaching of what you call the Roman Catholic Church.
One aspect I can not agree is any link between the book of Mormon and the Councils of the Church. The Councils of the Church were well known to all at the time they met. They are part of history. The Book Of Mormon was discoverd by Joseph Smith only after white men visited the USA.

 

[Pandora]

I am not sure what you mean dogtower. If it not about the trinity perhaps we could discuss it in another topic about the teaching of what you call the Roman Catholic Church.

One aspect I can not agree is any link between the book of Mormon and the Councils of the Church. The Councils of the Church were well known to all at the time they met. They are part of history. The Book Of Mormon was discovered by Joseph Smith only after white men visited the USA.

I am the one who made the comparison and I only mean they are the same in that they do not consider scripture the end all and be all or the final authority. For the RCC the final authority is the Pope and the Church, that is why you accept the trinity without much biblical validation.

A Mormon can be shown things in scripture that go against their teachings and they will refer back to the book of Mormon. A Seventh Day Adventist will refer back to the teachings of Ellen White and Jehovah's witnesses will refer back to the New World Translation and or the teachings of their governing body and or the teachings of Charles Russell the founder.

I was not trying to say you were like a Mormon or that Mormons were equally as important as your church just that the bible scriptures are not the final authority for the RCC or the LDS or the JWs or the SDA so it’s hard to argue scripture with them because they answer to a different authority.

I can ask a Roman Catholic why you call the priest Father when in Matt. 23:9 says...
Matthew 23:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
And the RC will say because the church teaches us its ok

In Matt 6 Jesus says pray to the Father in my name but RC pray to various saints and ask them to intervene and if you ask them they will tell you the church teaches and allows and encourages this

The Second Commandment reads:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)


But Catholics have many statues, mostly of Mary who has the feet worn off from so many people kissing them. If you ask them they again refer back to the church teachings so it doesn’t really matter what scripture says you can’t argue it with someone who’s final authority is something other than scripture.

 

[Pandora]

I know what the trinity means to me in my head. All one but separate. God the creator set for us his exmple, the teacher Jesus and bridge to God, that resides (lives) within us through the holy ghost.

I actually believe much the same thing except I dont consider Jesus as God but instead Gods son.

Jesus is the bridge the door the way the gate

 

[Cruella]

I actually believe much the same thing except I dont consider Jesus as God but instead Gods son.

Jesus is the bridge the door the way the gate

I agree with the bridge. I see Jesus as the middle man of the triology. I see God as this supernatural terrestial being that sent his Son Jesus, his human form of a man to teach us and when he left mankind physically, his living holy spirit remained within each of us and on down through the generations - it's what keeps us connected to God. Maybe the word son is tripping people up, or maybe if you think of the triology as three different forms of the one God. Maybe others understand it differently.

I also think that this is where all the different scriptures get confusing. The books of the bible were written by different men at different times and in different languages. Then it was put together by Constatine and then translated again into different languages again. There is also a lot of speculation of the time the bible was assembled and what happened to it in later versions. I've often wondered if we really even know the whole story. In the Catholic church, I believe they have more books in their bible than the King James version. But this is all probably discussion for a different thread.

 

[Pandora]

I agree with the bridge. I see Jesus as the middle man of the triology. I see God as this supernatural terrestial being that sent his Son Jesus, his human form of a man to teach us and when he left mankind physically, his living holy spirit remained within each of us and on down through the generations - it's what keeps us connected to God. Maybe the word son is tripping people up, or maybe if you think of the triology as three different forms of the one God. Maybe others understand it differently.

I also think that this is where all the different scriptures get confusing. The books of the bible were written by different men at different times and in different languages. Then it was put together by Constatine and then translated again into different languages again. There is also a lot of speculation of the time the bible was assembled and what happened to it in later versions. I've often wondered if we really even know the whole story. In the Catholic church, I believe they have more books in their bible than the King James version. But this is all probably discussion for a different thread.

I can wrap my head around all of it except the three persons one God. Too many times in various parts of the OT and NT it says there is one God and we will have no other... That was the first thing that made me look harder at the trinity and reject it. Plus I reject most of what the Catholic Church teaches outside of written scripture.



You are right there are more books in the Catholic bible. When Luther left he left behind some things and a few books are not in the KJV but there are many books that are in neither the catholic nor the non-Catholic bibles because they were banned for political reasons.

The book of Enoch is a good example of someone who is talked about in the books we have yet his book was banned. The lost books of Adam and Eve are as old as the book of Job and really have so much information yet they were banned too. And the council of nicea who decided on what books we would be allowed to have were almost going to pick the apocalypse of peter for the final book but ended up deciding on revelation. Then they banned the apocalypse of peter.

Crazy to me they would have almost picked a book then when they after weeks of debating decided to go with another book decided to banned the book entirely. The book jubilees is quoted twice in the bible but the book its self is banned. Now it’s considered taboo to read any of these books.

 

[Aus22]

I am the one who made the comparison and I only mean they are the same in that they do not consider scripture the end all and be all or the final authority. For the RCC the final authority is the Pope and the Church, that is why you accept the trinity without much biblical validation.

A Mormon can be shown things in scripture that go against their teachings and they will refer back to the book of Mormon. A Seventh Day Adventist will refer back to the teachings of Ellen White and Jehovah's witnesses will refer back to the New World Translation and or the teachings of their governing body and or the teachings of Charles Russell the founder.

I was not trying to say you were like a Mormon or that Mormons were equally as important as your church just that the bible scriptures are not the final authority for the RCC or the LDS or the JWs or the SDA so it’s hard to argue scripture with them because they answer to a different authority.

I can ask a Roman Catholic why you call the priest Father when in Matt. 23:9 says...
Matthew 23:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
And the RC will say because the church teaches us its ok

In Matt 6 Jesus says pray to the Father in my name but RC pray to various saints and ask them to intervene and if you ask them they will tell you the church teaches and allows and encourages this

The Second Commandment reads:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)


But Catholics have many statues, mostly of Mary who has the feet worn off from so many people kissing them. If you ask them they again refer back to the church teachings so it doesn’t really matter what scripture says you can’t argue it with someone who’s final authority is something other than scripture.

Pondora, I would like to answer your question in another topic as they have nothing to do with the Trinity. There are catholic books that explain our belie and I am quite prepare to do so under the Roman Catholic Church. You obviously misunderstand much Catholic teaching. We call a priest father as he is a spiritual father. If we are not to call anyone father what do we call our Dad. . The quote which you claim is the Second Commandment is in the Catholic Bible. The Commandments were not number in the original Bible. Making statutes we believe is not ban just worshiping them instead of God. Church teaching can not contradict the Bible as it comes from the same source the Holy Spirit

 

[Aus22]

There are seven books in the Catholic Bible that were omited during the Reformation because they were not in the Jewish Bible of that time. All books approve were join up by Councils of the Church.

 

[dogtowner]

Pondora, I would like to answer your question in another topic as they have nothing to do with the Trinity. There are catholic books that explain our belie and I am quite prepare to do so under the Roman Catholic Church. You obviously misunderstand much Catholic teaching. We call a priest father as he is a spiritual father. If we are not to call anyone father what do we call our Dad. . The quote which you claim is the Second Commandment is in the Catholic Bible. The Commandments were not number in the original Bible. Making statutes we believe is not ban just worshiping them instead of God. Church teaching can not contradict the Bible as it comes from the same source the Holy Spirit

good idea. the matter of the RCC's attitude toward the Virgin Mary and saints is a topic unto itself.

 

[Pandora]

Pondora, I would like to answer your question in another topic as they have nothing to do with the Trinity. There are catholic books that explain our belie and I am quite prepare to do so under the Roman Catholic Church. You obviously misunderstand much Catholic teaching. We call a priest father as he is a spiritual father. If we are not to call anyone father what do we call our Dad. . The quote which you claim is the Second Commandment is in the Catholic Bible. The Commandments were not number in the original Bible. Making statutes we believe is not ban just worshiping them instead of God. Church teaching can not contradict the Bible as it comes from the same source the Holy Spirit

ok make a thread about it and we can talk there.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

If Jesus Is God....then what is the "sacrifice" God makes when he has Jesus die? Its not Like God realy lost something..Jesus is God therefor is human death really a sacrifice for a being that is that powerful? God Does not lose anything...Jesus does not lose anything...so where is the Sacrifice?