Women of polygamist retreat speak out

[Bunz]

A more intelligent set of tactics should have been formulated

For sure, but it is often far easier to make tactical decisions about a situation when it is done. Have you ever heard the saying "no plan survives first contact"?

and an arrest warrant for Koresh would have been easy for LE to secure.

My understanding is that his/and anyone else named would be arrested based on the finding of the contents of the existing warrant.

The 'macho-factor' was hard at work within LE, as soon as the religious nuts pulled the first trigger. Revenge and face-saving became LE's top priority.

You dont know that. The far majority of them are very professional. The macho factor would have been to bring in far heavier power and make another run at it that night. Instead they stood back and attempted to negotiate a peaceful outcome for 51 days!

If kids had to die to that end, so be it (their thought-process, not mine).

That was exactly Koresh's position. If a few kids have to die, so be it. Because he could have let those kids leave and the women. But all of you conspiracy folks fail to understand. Koresh could have ended that peacefully at any time. Koresh was a psychopath, and had a death wish and was going to bring as many with him as possible. Women and children included.

 

[KingClovis]

The whole thing was Koresh's fault. I'm just saying I think I know a great deal about LE, and I'm confident they wanted revenge and to save face once the BATF got its head handed to it on the first day. Yes.........I have worked with cops extensively in the past. Part of me likes them. Another part distrusts them. They're 'thicker than thieves', and will act like perfect crooks if they feel threatened. Look at the current Peterson case. Now THAT is a crooked cop who was supported extensively by many, many, many other crooked cops.

 

[Libsmasher]

If I am not mistaken, the feds were executing a search warrant. They had legal right to enter that compound. You cannot do that while Koresh is in town checking the mail.
Shots were fired. We will never know who fired first. 10 people died that day, including 4 cops. But here is the thing, they had 51 days to give up. 51 days, Koresh didnt do it. Dont blame the wrong people for the action of madman terrorist in not coming out peacefully.

You are mistaken. From the wiki article:

Davy Aguilera, the ATF agent that had prepared the affidavit{seeking warrants}, testified later on the trial that a neighbor heard machine-gun fire; but Aguilera failed to tell the magistrate that the same neighbor had previously reported the noise to the sheriff, who investigated the noise. The sheriff found Koresh had a lawful item called a hellfire device, which allows a semi-automatic firearm to fire at a rate approaching that of fully automatic firearms. The affidavit was approved by a U.S. magistrate and was used as a base for warrants.[17]

Alleging that the Davidians had violated federal law, the ATF obtained search and arrest warrants for Koresh and specific followers

In other words, the arrest and search warrants were obtained from a magistrate by misrepresenting the facts.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I hate cops, but when they take correct action and get blamed for stuff like this , I will still back them up. If I just bashed them to bash them, it gives no weight to my argument when there is a legit reason to bash them ( say shooting a guy with no gun 19 times firing 41 shots...something we all know would not have happened to a white guy.) None found to have done anything wrong I belive.

"The 4 protectors Fired 41 shot.
Hitting him 19 times
searching the body there where no weapons found
he he lies with all who died in vain"

Amadou Diallom had commited no crime outside being black.

 

[Bunz]

You are mistaken. From the wiki article:



In other words, the arrest and search warrants were obtained from a magistrate by misrepresenting the facts.

Have you seen the warrant? I never have. But I think it might also have something to do with another paragraph that was left out from the same article.

In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department called the ATF notifying that his office had been contacted by the local United Parcel Service regarding a driver seeing a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing that it contained firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder. On June 9, 1992 a formal investigation was opened and a week later it was classified as sensitive, thereby calling for a high degree of oversight from both Houston and Headquarters (italics on the original).[

Then there is the information on the right side of the page that says they had already.

weapons:
243 total firearms, including two 50 caliber semi-automatic rifles, numerous assault rifles (semiautomatic AK-47s and AR-15s), shotguns, revolvers and pistols[6]
46 semiautomatic firearms modified to fire in full automatic mode (included on above list): 22 M-16 Type Rifles, 20 AK-47 Type Rifles, 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89, 2 M-11/Nine[7]
two AR-15 lower receivers also modified to fire in full automatic mode[7]
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades[7]

There is a big difference between a hellfire device someone has for thier ruger 10-22. Now the from your source, how do you explain the 46 modified ARs and AKs. It is not hard to do.

Give me some clarification here Lib, are you suggesting that the initial raid shouldnt have happened? That the warrants were illegal? the davidians were innocent?

 

[Libsmasher]

Have you seen the warrant? I never have. But I think it might also have something to do with another paragraph that was left out from the same article.

Then there is the information on the right side of the page that says they had already.

There is a big difference between a hellfire device someone has for thier ruger 10-22. Now the from your source, how do you explain the 46 modified ARs and AKs. It is not hard to do.

Give me some clarification here Lib, are you suggesting that the initial raid shouldnt have happened? That the warrants were illegal? the davidians were innocent?

Are any of those weapons illegal? Don't think so. Is it illegal to have a lot of weapons? No. Were the UPS parcel contents illegal? No. Was the warrant legal? Appears not - the authorities withheld key info from the magistrate. The last group in this country for which it is fine and dandy to express bigotry is Christians, and if it is a minor Christian group, turn the bigot accelerator to max. In a country in which the Pee See Marines are called out and hit the beach if someone says anything that even smells critical of blacks, the media and others openly deride such groups as Koresh's and call them "cults". In my opinion, in the case of Waco, this created a mindset in the gung-ho ATF/FBI officials that the "cult" must be up to no good (as opposed to just being gun afficianados) and let's go in and clear 'em out, with an illegal warrant, and it's OK because they're just a "cult".

 

[Jarlaxle]

Anyone ever seen the video of the initial F-troop raid on the compound? Look closely at the dirt on the ground...there is no return fire. Even a little .22 will kick up a puff of dust hitting dirt, a high-velocity round will kick up even more. F-troop is VERY lucky there wasn't one guy in there with a good match rifle. There wouldn't have been four dead feds, there might well have been FORTY.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Are any of those weapons illegal? Don't think so. Is it illegal to have a lot of weapons? No. Were the UPS parcel contents illegal? No. Was the warrant legal? Appears not - the authorities withheld key info from the magistrate. The last group in this country for which it is fine and dandy to express bigotry is Christians, and if it is a minor Christian group, turn the bigot accelerator to max. In a country in which the Pee See Marines are called out and hit the beach if someone says anything that even smells critical of blacks, the media and others openly deride such groups as Koresh's and call them "cults". In my opinion, in the case of Waco, this created a mindset in the gung-ho ATF/FBI officials that the "cult" must be up to no good (as opposed to just being gun afficianados) and let's go in and clear 'em out, with an illegal warrant, and it's OK because they're just a "cult".

Thanks for showing how little you know, yes in fact mod AR-15 and AK-47 where against the law.

As for if the warrant was legal or not...guess what the guys going in getting shot at only know they have the warrant and that they are being shot at. Also if you take issue with the warrant the proper place to deal with that is in court, not shooting at them.

 

[Bunz]

Are any of those weapons illegal? Don't think so. Is it illegal to have a lot of weapons? No. Were the UPS parcel contents illegal? No. Was the warrant legal? Appears not - the authorities withheld key info from the magistrate. The last group in this country for which it is fine and dandy to express bigotry is Christians, and if it is a minor Christian group, turn the bigot accelerator to max. In a country in which the Pee See Marines are called out and hit the beach if someone says anything that even smells critical of blacks, the media and others openly deride such groups as Koresh's and call them "cults". In my opinion, in the case of Waco, this created a mindset in the gung-ho ATF/FBI officials that the "cult" must be up to no good (as opposed to just being gun afficianados) and let's go in and clear 'em out, with an illegal warrant, and it's OK because they're just a "cult".

Firstly, it hasnt been legal to ship a firearm through the USPS since 1968 IIRC correctly. So merely shipping them is a federal crime number 1. We can probably throw in the materials for an explosive device with inert grenades and blackpowder.
Why did you leave out the part about illegally modified ARs and AKs? Because from the same article you sourced is where I got that info. Dozens of assault rifles with modified sears to make them fully auto capable. All of those are federal felonies.
Again, you fail to forget they had a search/arrest warrant for several members of the compound. It was based on having some pretty heavy firepower for a civilian group. The ATF went in with force and got 4 cops killed in the line of duty. They backed off and entered into negotiations for 51 days. 7 Weeks! For christ sake, wake up, these zealots had a death wish and it didnt matter how many kids got killed in the process.
Why cant you just say this has little do with the tactics and strategy in the situation and you dont like the President who was in charge at the time. Your blind partisanship and dislike of Clinton shades your view of just how those criminals acted. They were given every benefit of the doubt. Over 7 weeks worth. They could have ended it at any time.
And as far as your whole bigotry towards Christianity thing, I can do nothing but laugh. How many posts have you slammed Rev Wright and through him also Barak Obama? Bigotry, that is funny. The Christians run this country. Did you miss that memo?

 

[Pandora]

Polygamy should not be illegal. The first amendment to our constitution is freedom of religion. The fundamentalist sects of Mormonism clearly believe (and have since their beginnings) you must take plural wives to enter the kingdom of heaven. The Government should not be in the business of marriage in the first place. Anyone’s marriage! They only started insisting on government controlled marriages when they implemented the IRS.

Before the government stuck their stupid noses in it, it was between a man a woman and the preacher….. And The Devine Creator of course.

They wrote their names, the date in their bibles, and who was the minister, preacher, pastor or priest. The priest signed the bible, as did the witnesses and it was done.

We wouldn’t have the problems we have today fighting over gay marriage or polygamy marriages exc. If the government kept out of it in the first place.

Child abuse is another matter. I believe it is tradition that gets the girls married off so early, not any written laws by Joseph Smith. I think it’s fair enough to intervene when very young girls are forced into marriages.

 

[Bunz]

ObamaNation,
Interesting points you make. I support freedom of religion, I just choose not to practice one. But the laws of the land trump religious freedom. That would open justification of murder, such as cases of human sacrafice.
I agree that for the most part the government needs keep out of marriage.
Plus, what man in thier right mind would want more than a single wife?

Either way, under I am going to form my own sect of Christianity from the forgotten scrolls that say Jesus wanted his followers to print thier own money.

 

[American First]

Polygamy should not be illegal. The first amendment to our constitution is freedom of religion. The fundamentalist sects of Mormonism clearly believe (and have since their beginnings) you must take plural wives to enter the kingdom of heaven. The Government should not be in the business of marriage in the first place. Anyone’s marriage! They only started insisting on government controlled marriages when they implemented the IRS.

Before the government stuck their stupid noses in it, it was between a man a woman and the preacher….. And The Devine Creator of course.

They wrote their names, the date in their bibles, and who was the minister, preacher, pastor or priest. The priest signed the bible, as did the witnesses and it was done.

We wouldn’t have the problems we have today fighting over gay marriage or polygamy marriages exc. If the government kept out of it in the first place.

Child abuse is another matter. I believe it is tradition that gets the girls married off so early, not any written laws by Joseph Smith. I think it’s fair enough to intervene when very young girls are forced into marriages.

This is to ridiculous for response but here goes. You believe in The Devine Creator - You do not want the government "sticking their nose in anything -You do agree with marriage - You do not agree with child abuse but you think that very young (how young?) girls should not be forced into marriage.
Is that about it?

 

[Pandora]

ObamaNation,
Interesting points you make. I support freedom of religion, I just choose not to practice one. But the laws of the land trump religious freedom. That would open justification of murder, such as cases of human sacrafice.
I agree that for the most part the government needs keep out of marriage.
Plus, what man in thier right mind would want more than a single wife?

Either way, under I am going to form my own sect of Christianity from the forgotten scrolls that say Jesus wanted his followers to print thier own money.

I am sure any civilized society would outlaw human/animal sacrifice. I am not sure where plural marriage would hurt anyone but the poor husband

And I agree who would want more than one wife. I sure wouldn’t if I was a guy but if our constitution really does mean what it says then they should be able to follow their religion. But again I think it’s fair not to allow violent behavior even if it is part of a religion.

When the Mormons split it was over the plural marriage. The union refused to let Utah in as a state unless they abandon the plural marriage. Their prophet had an instant prophecy that plural marriages were wrong, it broke up the group. The people who practice it today really believe its part of how they get to heaven.

The constitution says all men are created equal, yet they who wrote it had slaves and only some could vote. We have perfected (well made better) the constitution by insisting all men and women are equal. The founders were wrong when they said we had freedom of religion then insisted that the Mormons couldn’t practice theirs. As we changed the definition of all men are created equal we should also consider other religions who practice polygamy. Mormons are not the only ones. Islam practices it, Jewish people used to but put a 1000 year self ban on it.

But again I do not think the government as any rights or business in peoples relationships.

 

[Pandora]

This is to ridiculous for response but here goes. You believe in The Devine Creator - You do not want the government "sticking their nose in anything -You do agree with marriage - You do not agree with child abuse but you think that very young (how young?) girls should not be forced into marriage.
Is that about it?

Yes, I do believe in a Devine Creator, and no I do not want the government sticking their nose into things that are not their business. I want the government to maintain a strong military, keep the main highways and bridges working, and protect our borders and things like that.

I do not want the government holding hearings on if some guy shot up with steroids before a baseball game, or if some guy has two wives, or other equally stupid things.

As for how young a person is before they get married.... Right now it’s a states rights thing. In some states I think its 14 if they have parent consent, in other states its 16. I would be ok with states deciding them selves what is an appropriate age for marriage with parent consent.

 

[KingClovis]

When it negatively affects kids, intervention is justified and even mandatory. The Utah fanatics were running human stud-farms, using underage teenagers as breeding stock. Nope.