Healthcare for uninsured should be solved privately.

[chestnut]

Doesn't it seem that to change the health care system for only 15% of america is a bit radical.

the whole country is going to be paying for this but it really is for 15% of the people in America.

Let Soros and the other wealthy libs come up with a system and let the libs donate all their money to the cause.

 

[Depeche Toad]

The myth is they don't get health care.

They may not have insurance, but that's not the same thing.

And it will force people who do not want it to buy into it anyway.

 

[Andy]

Most of the supposed 45 million that do not have health insurance, is that they can't get it. Most of the 45 Million choose to not get health insurance.

Why should we pay for people who are perfectly able, but choose to not get health insurance?

 

[chestnut]

This is a liberal / dem movement. Let the wealthiest libs get together and spend their money and they can solve the problem. All the wealthiest libs like Soros and Lewis have enough money and can find a way to provide this.

Forcing all americans into a substandard healh-control system is not the right solution.

 

[Pidgey]

Oh, don't worry... tax receipts to the "gummint" will fall so far this year that there won't be Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, annuities... all that stuff.

 

[top gun]

Doesn't it seem that to change the health care system for only 15% of america is a bit radical.

the whole country is going to be paying for this but it really is for 15% of the people in America.

Let Soros and the other wealthy libs come up with a system and let the libs donate all their money to the cause.

You're really kinda in the dark.

The fact is people without healthcare insurance just go to the MOST EXPENSIVE place for treatment "THE EMERGENCY ROOM" and by law THEY MUST BE TREATED.

Now who do ya suppose pays for that in their higher insurance premiums??? That's right, us, everyone that has health insurance.

The point is that healthcare (doctors-hospitals & medication) is one of those things that is basically "PRICE FIXED" as it is. It all goes up & up together as there is no real competition to push patient costs down... instead everybody basically just raises prices together.

And for the patient it's not like if he or she can't afford Macys they can just stroll on over to Kohls or Kmart.

The idea is to have a system that gives everybody very similar care to what they have now but through things like efficiency upgrades and nationally negotiated drug prices as well as some Federal funding everyone can be in the system taking some burden off employers and avoiding the yearly double digit inflation skyrocketing premiums that has been going on in the industry for years.

It's just a matter of saying... WE CAN DO BETTER!

 

[Dr.Who]

The fact is people without healthcare insurance just go to the MOST EXPENSIVE place for treatment "THE EMERGENCY ROOM" and by law THEY MUST BE TREATED.

I am glad to see that you recognized that they have health care.

Now we can talk about the real issue of how to we efficiently provide better health care for those who rely on emergency rooms.

But as long as people continue to repeat the lie that 47 mil don't have health care we won't even be discussing the right topic.

I suggest that we focus on getting them better jobs. And anyone who has a job that would allow him to get insurance but chooses not to can have any emergency room visits deducted from his future social security benefits.

Then anyone who owes social security money can have his social security taxes raised until it is paid back.

 

[chestnut]

Universal health care never works. No examples of it working effectively have been shown. The biggest problem is that once beurocrats get involved, it will get fkucked up!
Like social security and medicaid.

Anyone who thinks the govt can be successful at this program hasn't really been paying attention to all the other major national programs that have failed and are mis managed costing much more than what they said it would cost.

Not to mention, all the nations that have national health-control have rationed health care.

This means, the govt chooses what type of treatments people get and who gets it.

Maybe our system has some problems, but i would be in favor of the govt standing up to the insurnace companies and the hospitals instead of shanghaing the american people into a system that they have no way to manage effectively.

Remember, the govt, can't even handle figuring out what happend to the first 350 billion they gave to banks.

 

[Andy]

The fact is people without healthcare insurance just go to the MOST EXPENSIVE place for treatment "THE EMERGENCY ROOM" and by law THEY MUST BE TREATED.

Now who do ya suppose pays for that in their higher insurance premiums??? That's right, us, everyone that has health insurance.

Why yes, you appear to be right about that. Now explain how if the system was socialized, we would not be paying for those who refuse to pay for their own care?

For the record, in nearly every single country with socialized care, they pay nearly double the taxes that we do, to pay for it.

The point is that healthcare (doctors-hospitals & medication) is one of those things that is basically "PRICE FIXED" as it is. It all goes up & up together as there is no real competition to push patient costs down... instead everybody basically just raises prices together.

And for the patient it's not like if he or she can't afford Macys they can just stroll on over to Kohls or Kmart.

Actually I know of a few people specifically, that went to an "Urgent Care Center" instead of a hospital, to save money. So you are not exactly correct on that.

The idea is to have a system that gives everybody very similar care to what they have now but through things like efficiency upgrades and nationally negotiated drug prices as well as some Federal funding everyone can be in the system taking some burden off employers and avoiding the yearly double digit inflation skyrocketing premiums that has been going on in the industry for years.

The problem is, everyone does not get similar care in systems like those, regardless of whether you intend for them too or not.

For example in the UK, a 12 year old girl had a breast implants, while a women with breast cancer died while waiting for treatment. Why? Because the system is socialized. The moment you give government control, political groups have control over the system.

Similar to India where the government owns and controls the banking industry. A banker was called up by a government representative, and told to treat a specific customer (a government lobbyist) like a poverty case and to be given discounted rates for loans.

Further, you talk about reducing the price of drugs, yet in other countries, the way drug prices are kept low, is by not offering the latest greatest drugs. Many socialized care countries, use drugs that are considered obsolete in the US. Why? Because they can't afford the new drugs, and only older drugs are available.

Lastly, generally when governments socialize the industry, the industry leaves. In France, where the government dictates the prices, many pharmaceutical companies have simply pulled out, and moved to other countries.

So you can claim all you want, that a government system is going to be better. Yet I didn't hear you saying how great it was when Katrina hit. In fact, can you name a single government program that has worked well? It sure hasn't helped AIG to be owned by the government. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac didn't do too well. What government program would you cite as an example of the quality of operation you would expect from socialized health care?

 

[poptart]

Universal health care never works. No examples of it working effectively have been shown. The biggest problem is that once beurocrats get involved, it will get fkucked up!
Like social security and medicaid.

So when you are 65, you will turn down all medicare aid, just pay your own way?

 

[chestnut]

So when you are 65, you will turn down all medicare aid, just pay your own way?

I won't have to worry about it. it won't be around. because of that.. I plan on taking care of myself.

 

[The Scotsman]

For example in the UK, a 12 year old girl had a breast implants, while a women with breast cancer died while waiting for treatment. Why? Because the system is socialized. The moment you give government control, political groups have control over the system.

............ermmm no it doesn't!!?? It mean that taxes are raised centrally and given to Heath Trusts to allocate to their regional hospitals, accident and emergency centers and community medical centers etc......

M'kay....one other thing Andy, no health system is perfect as you will recall.....

A Minnesota surgeon has agreed to stop seeing patients after he made an "unthinkable" mistake — he removed a healthy kidney, leaving the cancerous one inside a patient,

.............

 

[Andy]

............ermmm no it doesn't!!?? It mean that taxes are raised centrally and given to Heath Trusts to allocate to their regional hospitals, accident and emergency centers and community medical centers etc......

M'kay....one other thing Andy, no health system is perfect as you will recall.....


.............

That wasn't the fault of the health system. The system, is the set of situational rules the govern how an industry operates. In which system do you think a screwed up doctor would never have made a mistake like that?

In fact, a socialized system, generally is more likely to make mistakes. For example a few years back, a VA hospital hired on a doctor that proceeded to kill 25% of the patients he operated on. One in four were killed.

Now the VA Hospitals in the US are completely run by the government. Like in most socialized care systems, the government has tried to hold down costs by reducing pay. In April of 2008, the Medical Center Director gave a statement about the VA hospitals in San Francisco. One of the interesting points was that for a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists, the going free market labor rate was $171K, whereas the VA hospitals only paid $139K.

The result is, getting good quality people to work there is difficult. When the cost of schooling to become a CRNA can be nearly $100K, why would you take a 20% cut in pay?

The result is people who likely would not get a job in the open market, can at a government run facility desperate for help.

The result is people like Dr. Jose Veizaga-Mendez. Dr. Jose had worked at another hospital in another state, and had killed a few patients. An investigation was opened on him, and he quit, moved to Marion, Illinois, where he got a position at a VA hospital. There he killed 10 people, and botched a large number of other surgeries.
VA Probes Doctor's Role in Patient Deaths

Now, in a privately run Hospital where patients are valued customers, and upholding the reputation of the Hospital as being safe, making sure that you have good qualified worthy staff is very important. There are several national data bases that store information on doctors that are under investigation. A private hospital will carefully check the qualifications, and reputation of the doctor before hiring.

In a socialized VA hospital, no such concerns are present. After all, the hospitals single customer is government. The ability to please the government is limited to making sure they stay within budget. The patient is merely a number, a problem that needs dealt with. So when a doctor shows up offering to do that job, at a greatly understaffed VA Hospital that can't compete wage wise with the private sector, he is hired instantly... and the results... well you see what they are.

Another example, actually comes from the democrats who support socialized care. Yet it shows conclusively how it doesn't work. Of course they won't admit it.

Please read "Healthcare: A Tale of Two ERs" from the Momocrats web site.

I'll give you a quick run down. A DNC activist, got sick during the democratic national convention. Worried she might have gotten pneumonia, she decided to go to a care center. The first place she went, was a socialized publicly funded center. She was treated like crap. She waited for hours with no service. The people were rude. No one cared a wit. She complained to the staff, and they just shrugged at her. Why? Cause she's not the customer. Government is. As long as the customer, government, is happy, they get paid regardless of what the patients think.

Then in disgust, she left and went to a private, pay-for-service (read evil greedy capitalist) care center. Shockingly she was treated like a customer. The people were friendly. She was given quick, prompt service. Within the hour, she was checked, and given medicine for her illness, and was sent on her way, like a valued customer.

Again, the point is, socialized systems are no good. Ironically, after so clearly being shown the difference between the two, this DNC staffer amazingly blamed republicans for the bad experience she had at the socialized care center. Proving once again, idiots can not be taught anything.

 

[Andy]

I thought I'd add this to the thread since we're discussing it.

I've said before that under socialized care, the government holds down prices by denying new medications. In other words, yes the meds are free, but you don't have access to any new medications at all, since they are too expensive for the government budget limited system to supply. The results are people are systematically denied the best possible care.

Here is another example of just that.

Brave Mike has been given months to live. One drug could extend his life but the NHS will not provide it.

Medical experts believe he is a suitable candidate for Cetuximab, which has a one in four success rate of prolonging the lives of those with bowel cancer.

It's licensed in Scotland - but not approved under the NHS.

Yesterday, Mike said: "The NHS worked hard trying to save the life of the terrorist badly burned in the Glasgow airport attack. That's how it should be.

"Yet the same NHS is willing to allow me and many others to die because of money."

The newer drug Cetuximab is widely available in the US... to those who can pay. In Scotland, you don't even get the option.

That's socialism.

NHS Willing To Let Me Die To Save £40,000

 

[Andy]

Here is yet another example. Again, in a private, pay-for-service health system, a patient is a valued customer, and healing and survivability rates are valued reputation coveted by hospitals.


But under a socialized system, where the government is the customer, and patients are merely bothersome 'problems' to be dealt with, the view of them is very different.

Neonatal care is very expensive, and takes a lot of time. In a government system, limited by dwindling government coffers, an expensive patient that takes up a lot of space for a lot of time, is a drain to the system.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) says the huge efforts to save babies born under 25 weeks are hampering the treatment of other infants with a better chance of survival and a healthy life.

As the NHS faces an increasing financial crisis, with beds being closed and jobs axed, it says these very premature babies are “blocking” much-needed intensive care cots, sometimes forcing expectant mothers with potentially healthier babies to be transported by ambulance to other hospitals

Doctors call premature babies ‘bed blockers’

Yet again, this is how socialized systems work. When you are not the customer, when you are not paying their bills... then you are just a problem.