Palin's Abortion Stance

She hunts for food, that's nice, the bloodthirsty broad really needs to, doesn't she? My point is that she condones and enables trophy killing by out of state urban hunters.

Sorry but I don't consider a bunch of nonviable cells to be a child. Anymore than I consider the eggs I collect from my laying hens to be chickens.

As Gov she made laws that enabled trophy killing by out of state urban hunters? Can you please show me proof that she did this? Or was this a law already on the books many many years before she ever became even a mayor and long before she became Gov?

The point of comparing Owls eggs and human eggs is this. People on the left are all for the federal laws prohibiting us from even touching an owls or eagles egg even if we are not sure it’s fertile, because it has potential to become an owl/eagle. They do not show that same respect to a human egg that is for sure fertile.
 
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I may indeed be a hypocrate, but Sarah Palin is a hypocrite. Or do you care to explain your objections to my argument in legitimate detail? You said you would debate anyone.

My objections to your argument is that it’s a seriously insane argument.

You put the life of a moose or elk on the same level as the life of a human being, without leaving any room for the human being to eat food. Humans eat meat. If you put the elk on the same level as humans that is to say that humans should not eat meat because they are eating something on the same level as them.

But you lower the level of pre born humans and elevate the level of fertile or unfertile owl’s eggs above all.

Your reply on child rape was so disgusting that there was little I could say to you and not be banned.

Murderers should not be put to death for murdering but people should go to prison for touching an owls egg.

If you can find sanity in any thing you posted than you must be from Canada!

All you have proved is that you are by far a more hypocritical person than Sarah Palin is but you are calling her a hypocrite, she is not the one calling you a hypocrite.

If you would like to debate abortion I am happy to do that. But its been established that you are the hypocrite far and above Sarah Palin.. that topic seems pretty done to me!
 
As Gov she made laws that enabled trophy killing by out of state urban hunters? Can you please show me proof that she did this? Or was this a law already on the books many many years before she ever became even a mayor and long before she became Gov?

The point of comparing Owls eggs and human eggs is this. People on the left are all for the federal laws prohibiting us from even touching an owls or eagles egg even if we are not sure it’s fertile, because it has potential to become an owl/eagle. They do not show that same respect to a human egg that is for sure fertile.

There is a simple explanation..species of Owl and different species of Eagles are endangered... for example the American Bald Eagle was just recently removed from the Endangered Species list thanks to the efforts of people you like to deride. If it was up to you and others like you (Palin for example) they would now be extinct.

The human population is not only not endangered but there are way too many of us, a few more abortions might be in order. Plus a limit on how many children a couple can have would be a good idea.
 
My objections to your argument is that it’s a seriously insane argument.

You put the life of a moose or elk on the same level as the life of a human being, without leaving any room for the human being to eat food. Humans eat meat. If you put the elk on the same level as humans that is to say that humans should not eat meat because they are eating something on the same level as them.

But you lower the level of pre born humans and elevate the level of fertile or unfertile owl’s eggs above all.

Your reply on child rape was so disgusting that there was little I could say to you and not be banned.

Murderers should not be put to death for murdering but people should go to prison for touching an owls egg.

If you can find sanity in any thing you posted than you must be from Canada!

All you have proved is that you are by far a more hypocritical person than Sarah Palin is but you are calling her a hypocrite, she is not the one calling you a hypocrite.

If you would like to debate abortion I am happy to do that. But its been established that you are the hypocrite far and above Sarah Palin.. that topic seems pretty done to me!

I'm from the Left Coast, not Canada. I never said that a moose or elk was on the same level as a grown human. I said that such nonhuman animals were above the level of a human fetus because unlike a fetus, they have the capacity to see themselves as a distinct entity that exists over time.

My view on child rape was disgusting? Why is it disgusting to consider brutal acts that cause severe emotional harm more serious than ones that don't?
 
There is a simple explanation..species of Owl and different species of Eagles are endangered... for example the American Bald Eagle was just recently removed from the Endangered Species list thanks to the efforts of people you like to deride. If it was up to you and others like you (Palin for example) they would now be extinct.

The human population is not only not endangered but there are way too many of us, a few more abortions might be in order. Plus a limit on how many children a couple can have would be a good idea.

So you are telling me that human life is ok to kill because it is not valuable like eagles and owls :) thank you. That is the only argument pro baby killig anti owl egg touching people have ever had.... I rest my case :)
 
I'm from the Left Coast, not Canada. I never said that a moose or elk was on the same level as a grown human. I said that such nonhuman animals were above the level of a human fetus because unlike a fetus, they have the capacity to see themselves as a distinct entity that exists over time.

My view on child rape was disgusting? Why is it disgusting to consider brutal acts that cause severe emotional harm more serious than ones that don't?

your view on child rape that its better to rape a child than an adult because its harder on an adult is sick and it is twisted

what do you think about maybe moving to Canada if McCain Palin gets elected?
 
I'm from the Left Coast, not Canada. I never said that a moose or elk was on the same level as a grown human. I said that such nonhuman animals were above the level of a human fetus because unlike a fetus, they have the capacity to see themselves as a distinct entity that exists over time.

My view on child rape was disgusting? Why is it disgusting to consider brutal acts that cause severe emotional harm more serious than ones that don't?

Yes, you are right. You compared the child in the womb as less than an elk or deer. I am sorry, my mistake. I consider a child in the womb as equal to you and me so it was me that messed up there by comparing an elk to a human. I consider children who are in the mother’s womb human.

And am I correct that you consider an owl or eagle egg fertile or not more valuable than a child in the womb?
 
So you are telling me that human life is ok to kill because it is not valuable like eagles and owls :) thank you. That is the only argument pro baby killig anti owl egg touching people have ever had.... I rest my case :)

Male spermatozoa is life too, and can potentially fertilize a female egg, perhaps the self righteous right wing religious freaks should try to outlaw masturbation...oh excuse me, they already had that going on in the dark ages. Well, I'm sure in Jesusland some similar law will be enacted.

BTW, there are many arguments supporting a legal medical procedure such as abortion, I was just responding to your ridiculous argument comparing owl eggs to nonviable cells.
 
The baby is an innocent person, like you were once. The moose is food, very pretty to look at but none the less food. Moose are food to humans and food to wolves.

I bet if you were honest we could find something that is actually inconsistent with you. I can see you pro abortion. Killing an innocent child for any reason is ok by you but what about the death penalty? A man rapes and kills a 9 year old child, and in sentenced to the die. Are you ok with that? Or are you anti death penalty. I bet you are anti death penalty. Most people who are pro baby killing for any reason in a pregnancy are also anti death penalty for any reason in a murderer. Pattern Baby innocent, Murderer guilty

Fine I will eat the fetus for you then
 
Male spermatozoa is life too, and can potentially fertilize a female egg, perhaps the self righteous right wing religious freaks should try to outlaw masturbation...oh excuse me, they already had that going on in the dark ages. Well, I'm sure in Jesusland some similar law will be enacted.

BTW, there are many arguments supporting a legal medical procedure such as abortion, I was just responding to your ridiculous argument comparing owl eggs to nonviable cells.

I am not the one who is advocating protection of non fertile eggs. The left is.
I advocate at least the same protection of a fertile human egg as we would give to a non fertile owl’s egg.

Why is that unreasonable?
 
your view on child rape that its better to rape a child than an adult because its harder on an adult is sick and it is twisted

what do you think about maybe moving to Canada if McCain Palin gets elected?

Care to explain why it is worse for someone that it causes less emotional trauma for?

Why the **** would I move? If McSame and Sarah of the Igloo Clan win, that isn't reason to leave. That's reason to stay and fight.

Yes, you are right. You compared the child in the womb as less than an elk or deer. I am sorry, my mistake. I consider a child in the womb as equal to you and me so it was me that messed up there by comparing an elk to a human. I consider children who are in the mother’s womb human.

I agree that a fetus is human life. However, I disagree that it is a person. It lacks traits such as self-awareness, or the capacity to view itself as a distinct entity over time, that are integral to personhood.

And am I correct that you consider an owl or eagle egg fertile or not more valuable than a child in the womb?

Um...no. I said a living nonhuman animal was more valuable than a human fetus because it possessed greater traits of personhood. Eggs obviously wouldn't qualify. I really think you need to understand my position better before you go saying nonsense of this sort.

This article may illuminate my views for you more clearly, as it was written by a fellow preference utilitarian with whom I am in essential agreement.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22304219-5000117,00.html

FOR a woman who does not want to have a child, pregnancy and birth is a severe hardship.

To force anyone to endure an avoidable hardship of that kind is contrary to our general belief in promoting individual freedom and choice. Such a denial of freedom could only be justified if there was a very compelling reason for it.

Opponents of abortion think there is a very compelling reason for denying freedom in these circumstances. They regard abortion as murder. Killing an embryo or fetus, they say, takes an innocent human life.

Defenders of a woman's right to choose sometimes challenge this claim. They deny that the embryo or fetus is a human life. The abortion debate then focuses on the question, "When does a human life begin?"

I think this is the wrong question to ask. In a strictly biological sense, the opponents of abortion are right to say that abortion ends a human life.

When a woman has an abortion, the fetus is alive, and it is undoubtedly human – in the sense that it is a member of the species homo sapiens. It isn't a dog or a chimpanzee.

But mere membership of our species doesn't settle the moral issue of whether it is wrong to end a life. As long as the abortion is carried out at less than 20 weeks of gestation – as almost all abortions are – the brain of the fetus has not developed to the point of making consciousness possible.

In that respect, the fetus is less developed, and less aware of its circumstances, than the animals that we routinely kill and eat for dinner.

That is why the fetus is "innocent". It doesn't have the capacity to do anything wrong – or anything right.

Even when the fetus does develop a capacity to feel pain – probably in the last third of the pregnancy – it still does not have the self-awareness of a chimpanzee, or even a dog.

When this is pointed out, some opponents of abortion respond that the fetus, unlike the dog or chimpanzee, is made in the image of God, or has an immortal soul. They thereby acknowledge religion is the driving force behind their opposition.

But there is no evidence for these religious claims, and in a society in which we keep the state and religion separate, we should not use them as a basis for the criminal law, which applies to people with different religious beliefs, or to those with none at all.

Other opponents say the fetus has the potential to become a person, that is, a thinking, rational being, like ourselves, and the dog or chimpanzee do not have that potential. But why should mere potential give a being a right to life?

The world already has more than six billion people. We are heading for more than nine billion by 2050. The more people there are, the greater the pressure on the Earth's environment and the greater the difficulty in giving them all even a minimally decent life. Do we really want every potential person to become an actual person?

In fact, with modern medical technology, the argument from potential rapidly leads to absurdity.

Scientists have shown, in many different species, including monkeys, that it is possible to clone an animal by taking the nucleus of an ordinary cell, and implanting it in an egg from which the nucleus has been removed.

There is no biological reason to suppose that this would not work for human beings. This means that billions of our cells have the potential to become an actual person.

Yet no one thinks that we have an obligation to "save" all these cells and turn them into people.

Arguably, the fetus first becomes a being of moral significance when it develops the capacity to feel pain, some time after 20 weeks of gestation.

We should be concerned about the capacity of fetuses to suffer pain in late-term abortions. On the rare occasions when such abortions are necessary, they should be performed in a way that minimises the possibility of suffering.

Admittedly, birth is in some ways an arbitrary place to draw the line at which killing the developing human life ceases to be permissible, and instead becomes murder.

A prematurely born infant may be less developed than a late-term fetus. But the criminal law needs clear dividing lines and, in normal circumstances, birth is the best we have.
 
Care to explain why it is worse for someone that it causes less emotional trauma for?

Why the **** would I move? If McSame and Sarah of the Igloo Clan win, that isn't reason to leave. That's reason to stay and fight.



I agree that a fetus is human life. However, I disagree that it is a person. It lacks traits such as self-awareness, or the capacity to view itself as a distinct entity over time, that are integral to personhood.



Um...no. I said a living nonhuman animal was more valuable than a human fetus because it possessed greater traits of personhood. Eggs obviously wouldn't qualify. I really think you need to understand my position better before you go saying nonsense of this sort.

This article may illuminate my views for you more clearly, as it was written by a fellow preference utilitarian with whom I am in essential agreement.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22304219-5000117,00.html




Well that is disappointing, I was hoping you could join the cause and move to Canada if Lord Obama lost :(

I was personally molested as a child, not raped as a child but molested in ways I wont go into but it was terribly traumatic. I was also raped as an adult.

I have long since gotten over the rape. I feel partially to blame being in the wrong place and associating with people who were dangerous. I can.t really say that I am over the molestation. I don’t trust men especially around my daughter. If I see a man and a child, Its never my first thought that its a dad walking with his child, My first thought is always he is abducting her to molest her.

So you can say you think a kid can handle rape better than a 20 year old but I know better.


And as for your story on the hardships of women to carry a baby to term. If you max out your credit card there will be a hardship to pay it off but it.s something you got yourself into and you need to be responsible. If we expect people to be responsible for if they drink and drive, if they over spend on credit cards, even when there is hardship involved, why is it unreasonable to expect that same responsibility where human life is concerned.
 
Well that is disappointing, I was hoping you could join the cause and move to Canada if Lord Obama lost :(

I was personally molested as a child, not raped as a child but molested in ways I wont go into but it was terribly traumatic. I was also raped as an adult.

I have long since gotten over the rape. I feel partially to blame being in the wrong place and associating with people who were dangerous. I can.t really say that I am over the molestation. I don’t trust men especially around my daughter. If I see a man and a child, Its never my first thought that its a dad walking with his child, My first thought is always he is abducting her to molest her.

So you can say you think a kid can handle rape better than a 20 year old but I know better.


And as for your story on the hardships of women to carry a baby to term. If you max out your credit card there will be a hardship to pay it off but it.s something you got yourself into and you need to be responsible. If we expect people to be responsible for if they drink and drive, if they over spend on credit cards, even when there is hardship involved, why is it unreasonable to expect that same responsibility where human life is concerned.

I don't like Obama. I think he's a phony who lacks substance. But I would rather that he won than McSame.

Your personal experiences cannot determine the general trend regarding the difference between the sexual assault of a child and the sexual assault of an adult. There were obviously some instances of people like you in the study I cited. But the vast majority of people who went through the same thing you did indicated a far different trend: that the emotional trauma from adult rape is significantly worse than that of child rape.

The difference between the woman with the unwanted pregnancy and the cases you cited is that her interests, those of a person, outweigh those of a nonperson.

The feminist author Judith Jarvis Thomson uses the example of a dying musician who needs an extremely rare blood type to live. You have the blood type, so a society of music lovers kidnaps you and connects your circulatory system with that of the dying musician. You can disconnect yourself if you'd like, but if you were to do so, the musician would die. On the other hand, if you stayed connected to him for nine months, he would walk away completely healthy. Thomson concludes that it would not be morally wrong for you to disconnect yourself from the musician because you did not choose for him to be dependent on your body.

The primary flaw with this argument is that it assumes that the fetus is a person. But the fetus lacks traits of personhood. It lacks self-awareness, rationality, and the capacity to feel pleasure and pain. Hence, a more accurate analogy might be that of you being kidnapped and connected to a fish in order for the fish to survive, since a fish has more traits of personhood than an embryo does. Or perhaps, another analogy might be that you are connected to a chicken, which possesses greater traits of personhood than a more late-term fetus does.

Would you hold that it is morally wrong to disconnect yourself in either of those cases? Or don't you hold that your interests outweigh those of a fish or chicken?
 
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The difference between the woman with the unwanted pregnancy and the cases you cited is that her interests, those of a person, outweigh those of a nonperson.

Forgive me if you have already covered this but, exactly at what point did you change from being a "Non-person" to being a person... and according to whom?
 
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