RINO Romney enters prez race

"Bigger" is not an answer. Put a numerical value on it.

Krugman thought that almost none of it should be tax cuts. I have heard him describe it as about half as big as it should be. Your demand that I put a numerical value on it suggests that you've forgotten that we're just a couple of amateurs.

That is all fine and good, if the government then cut spending and eliminates waste down the road...something that rarely happens.

Our spending is not out of line with the spending of other prosperous nations. Cutting waste is always wonderful.
 
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Tell us your fix. Thanks.

First to clear up Keynesian theory, it says, government must FIRST save money during the prosperous times, and then spend the money in such a way that it puts money back into the economy at a point where it will grow the economy.

You can't spend like a drunken sailor during good times and then borrow money and put it where lobbyist want it to go. Save first - other countries (like China) have sovereign wealth funds where they keep the surplus money. Then spend during recessions.

About using public funds to make the economy grow... infrastructure is not the answer. I am a civil engineer and have worked around infrastructure projects all my life. Everything associated with infrastructure projects require specialized skills. From the engineer who draws the plans to the bulldozer driver who helps build the bridge, or road.

How do you expect some group of unemployed people, like home builders to factory workers to benefit from infrastructure spending? I guess building new schools would help out construction workers. But, in general, you cannot put a glob of stimulus money out into some sector of the economy and hope some "invisible hand" will spread it around like peanut butter.

Of course, a very wealthy and very tired bulldozer operator will give money to his wife, who will then spend money - but that is a very inefficient process.

I was also a small business owner, and here is what makes small businesses grow: confidence in the future. As an entrepreneur, I can always find new areas of work where my company can expand. For example, my engineering company expanded to start a sister company that writes Environmental Impact Reports. We could use the management skills from the existing company to hire the technical experts to create a new branch company.

But I am not going to do that if I have Obamacare staring me in the face with the prospect that I may have to spend a lot more money on health benefits. When the Federal Debt is sky-high, and no one can agree on a solution, then I get real nervous. Because my company is profitable, and my salary and bonus are good, I figure I am a good candidate for increased taxes.

And it really doesn't help when I talk to my bank loan officer who says, "Word from the top: no more loans to anyone, no matter how good their credit."

Then the government announces it will dump stimulus money into the Small Business Administration, which is an impossible bureaucracy. I doubt the SBA has ever helped any small business grow.

Do you think the economy is going to grow under those circumstances? NO!

You get the picture? Small business must have confidence the government wants to be a true partner in growing business; and thus grow the economy together. Tell me I don't have to pay FICA on new employees for the next 10 years and won't have to pay for government mandated benefits. Or issue some government loan guarantees to banks who loan to business with good credit. (Kind of like the VA housing loan guarantees -they give banks confidence). Then I will feel that now is the time to think about expansion.

If government is going to spend money, it must be for the purpose of helping the economy grow by helping companies grow. In turn, those companies will create real, long lasting jobs across the full spectrum of the economy. All workers will benefit, and profitable companies will pay more taxes to the state, the city, and the school districts. Those local governments can then improve roads, build new schools, and hire janitors and secretaries.

Viola! Recession slowly vanishes and happy days will be here again.
 
First to clear up Keynesian theory, it says, government must FIRST save money during the prosperous times, and then spend the money in such a way that it puts money back into the economy at a point where it will grow the economy.

You can't spend like a drunken sailor during good times and then borrow money and put it where lobbyist want it to go. Save first - other countries (like China) have sovereign wealth funds where they keep the surplus money. Then spend during recessions.

By George, I think he's got it!

I hope that those who believe that Keynesian policy means nothing but deficit spending under any circumstances take note.

However, would the public really tolerate a vast government savings account?

About using public funds to make the economy grow... infrastructure is not the answer. I am a civil engineer and have worked around infrastructure projects all my life. Everything associated with infrastructure projects require specialized skills. From the engineer who draws the plans to the bulldozer driver who helps build the bridge, or road.

How do you expect some group of unemployed people, like home builders to factory workers to benefit from infrastructure spending? I guess building new schools would help out construction workers. But, in general, you cannot put a glob of stimulus money out into some sector of the economy and hope some "invisible hand" will spread it around like peanut butter.

You surely realize that there are people doing less skilled labor on any infrastructure project.

Of course, a very wealthy and very tired bulldozer operator will give money to his wife, who will then spend money - but that is a very inefficient process.

:confused:

I was also a small business owner, and here is what makes small businesses grow: confidence in the future. As an entrepreneur, I can always find new areas of work where my company can expand. For example, my engineering company expanded to start a sister company that writes Environmental Impact Reports. We could use the management skills from the existing company to hire the technical experts to create a new branch company.

But I am not going to do that if I have Obamacare staring me in the face with the prospect that I may have to spend a lot more money on health benefits. When the Federal Debt is sky-high, and no one can agree on a solution, then I get real nervous. Because my company is profitable, and my salary and bonus are good, I figure I am a good candidate for increased taxes.

And it really doesn't help when I talk to my bank loan officer who says, "Word from the top: no more loans to anyone, no matter how good their credit."

Then the government announces it will dump stimulus money into the Small Business Administration, which is an impossible bureaucracy. I doubt the SBA has ever helped any small business grow.

Do you think the economy is going to grow under those circumstances? NO!

You get the picture? Small business must have confidence the government wants to be a true partner in growing business; and thus grow the economy together. Tell me I don't have to pay FICA on new employees for the next 10 years and won't have to pay for government mandated benefits. Or issue some government loan guarantees to banks who loan to business with good credit. (Kind of like the VA housing loan guarantees -they give banks confidence). Then I will feel that now is the time to think about expansion.

If government is going to spend money, it must be for the purpose of helping the economy grow by helping companies grow. In turn, those companies will create real, long lasting jobs across the full spectrum of the economy. All workers will benefit, and profitable companies will pay more taxes to the state, the city, and the school districts. Those local governments can then improve roads, build new schools, and hire janitors and secretaries.

Viola! Recession slowly vanishes and happy days will be here again.

Small business owners are going to benefit from the ACA. Right now, people won't start small businesses or take jobs with a small business because they don't have access to health insurance. You are drastically reducing your talent pool.

I'm sure you realize that in the Fall of 08 "no loans to anyone regardless of their credit" was exactly the problem that faced the nation. Government action was necessary to help that situation. We were at the brink.
 
Right now Obama is trying to launch a program, partially privately funded, to rebuild our infrastructure. This is a great leap toward what the right has asked for. Immediately the senate minority leader dismissed it. Who in this room doesn't see the need to rebuild our roads, bridges and public buildings?
 
Right now Obama is trying to launch a program, partially privately funded, to rebuild our infrastructure.

He's already lied once about this. Remember the "shovel-ready jobs" he promised in 2009, as a justification for his TRILLION DOLLAR porkulus? He was "shoveling" it, alright. Most of the money went to states that had become near bankrupt by lavish spending on over-compensated state employees, democrat constituencies, and illegal aliens.

This is a great leap toward what the right has asked for.

What right? I've opposed it, particularly the high speed train boondoggle.

Who in this room doesn't see the need to rebuild our roads, bridges and public buildings?

The immediate need is to restart the economy, and there is exactly, precisely one way to do that - cut taxes and regulation, beginning with the repeal of obozocare. The roads will have to wait.
 
You surely realize that there are people doing less skilled labor on any infrastructure project.
Go visit a large construction site. Everybody has a skill. Contracts for these infrastructure projects are given to existing, large construction companies who are highly specialized. No one uses a shovel anymore. Most of the time union rules prohibit hiring unskilled labor off the street.

Small business owners are going to benefit from the ACA. Right now, people won't start small businesses or take jobs with a small business because they don't have access to health insurance. You are drastically reducing your talent pool.
As Pelosi said, "we have to pass the health care bill so that you can find out what is in it". That scares me. And most of the provisions of the act don't take effect until the out years. Right now nobody can say with certainty what Obamacare really means.

I never had any problem finding health insurance coverage for the company. Insurance company representatives are beating down the door. Group health insurance coverage is a lot cheaper than individual health insurance policies. Where did you ever get the idea that small business didn't have the money, or couldn't get access to purchase health care for their employees? Big doesn't mean more profitable.

I'm sure you realize that in the Fall of 08 "no loans to anyone regardless of their credit" was exactly the problem that faced the nation. Government action was necessary to help that situation. We were at the brink.

Business relies on its credit rating to get loans because renting office space and buying computers and furniture is not great collateral. Don't quote me what the news media is reporting. Don't take my word for it. Go talk to a bank loan officer if you want to know the truth.

The banks may have been at the "brink" (If you believed Hank Paulson), but now they are back from the brink and hoarding the cash. They and not lending to business. Go discover the truth yourself - at the bank!.
 
Rick, how will repealing the ACA jumpstart the economy?

Hobo, I'm well aware of how a construction site works. There are people there of greater and lesser skills on any project. The primary contract is given to a company that hires subcontractors of varying specialties. The employees are of varying skill levels. And there are still laborers on most building sites.

Pelosi's comment on the ACA, taken in context, clearly meant that there was so much Tea Party bull**** about the bill at that point that rational points of view were not being heard.

I got the idea that small businesses often don't offer health insurance to their employees from reality. I live in a red state, with little unionization.

My point about the financial collapse was that capitalism runs on credit, and the credit markets had seized up. The options were government intervention or world wide depression. I'm sure that you don't dispute that.

Yes, it is a problem that they are still hoarding cash.
 
There were (and are) many shovel ready jobs in every state. The stinulus money was spent by the states to pay debt instead of job creation and infrastructure. Some states avoided becoming unsolvent this way. Bush didn't include wars in his budget and the pharma plan was unfunded also. It was several months before honest bookeeping methods showed the real plight the nation was in. By this time all the states and the federal gov had lost billions in revenue unforeseen because of unemployment and property devaluation. In short, Bush gave Obama a pig-in-a-poke so all his estimates at the beginning of his administration were wildly skewed, Obama has since admitted this. Each and every one of you who voted for Bush twice and refuse to admit it are to blame and you brought this down not only on yourself but the world. I refuse to sit idly by this time and watch it happen again, win or lose I'm going out and fight this one by joining rallys and Democratic clubs.
 
There were (and are) many shovel ready jobs in every state. The stinulus money was spent by the states to pay debt instead of job creation and infrastructure. Some states avoided becoming unsolvent this way. Bush didn't include wars in his budget and the pharma plan was unfunded also. It was several months before honest bookeeping methods showed the real plight the nation was in. By this time all the states and the federal gov had lost billions in revenue unforeseen because of unemployment and property devaluation. In short, Bush gave Obama a pig-in-a-poke so all his estimates at the beginning of his administration were wildly skewed, Obama has since admitted this. Each and every one of you who voted for Bush twice and refuse to admit it are to blame and you brought this down not only on yourself but the world. I refuse to sit idly by this time and watch it happen again, win or lose I'm going out and fight this one by joining rallys and Democratic clubs.

Is it your assertion that the wars and the pharma plan are to blame for the situation we are in?
 
There were (and are) many shovel ready jobs in every state. The stinulus money was spent by the states to pay debt instead of job creation and infrastructure. Some states avoided becoming unsolvent this way. Bush didn't include wars in his budget and the pharma plan was unfunded also. It was several months before honest bookeeping methods showed the real plight the nation was in. By this time all the states and the federal gov had lost billions in revenue unforeseen because of unemployment and property devaluation. In short, Bush gave Obama a pig-in-a-poke so all his estimates at the beginning of his administration were wildly skewed, Obama has since admitted this. Each and every one of you who voted for Bush twice and refuse to admit it are to blame and you brought this down not only on yourself but the world. I refuse to sit idly by this time and watch it happen again, win or lose I'm going out and fight this one by joining rallys and Democratic clubs.

Which means that we still need infrastructure stimulus spending.

I think that they are ashamed of voting for Bush. This will result in an attack on me for voting for Obama, but that just won't stand.

Is it your assertion that the wars and the pharma plan are to blame for the situation we are in?

They are part of it. Don't you agree?

The Rx plan was transparently a wet kiss to the Rx industry. The government wasn't even allowed to negotiate prices. :mad:
 
Rick, how will repealing the ACA jumpstart the economy?

That's just one thing, and I've already explained this, but here it is again. Obozocare will place HUGE new unfunded mandates on state governments, which will raise taxes to cover them. Further, obozocare has created huge uncertainty for employers about what radical regulations will be imposed on them, and what the next shoe to drop will be. Since the welter of regulations regarding obozocare is employee centered, their solution is not hire new employees. To jumpstart an economy, you need to DE-TAX and DE-REGULATE, like Reagan did in the 1980s, setting off a long period of prosperity.
 
I voted for Bush TWICE. Why? Because the alternatives were Al "I invented the internet AND global warming" Gore and John "I marry rich women" Kerry.

I'm not "ashamed" because I voted for Bush. I have mixed feelings. Some disappointment. Some positive thoughts. Some negative thoughts.

One thing I don't do, and have never done, is blindly drink whatever Kool-Aid the two major political parties are serving, and embarrass myself over and over again by defending the indefensible actions, acts of hypocrisy, and blatant lies of a particular political party.
 
I voted for Bush TWICE. Why? Because the alternatives were Al "I invented the internet AND global warming" Gore and John "I marry rich women" Kerry.

I'm not "ashamed" because I voted for Bush. I have mixed feelings. Some disappointment. Some positive thoughts. Some negative thoughts.

One thing I don't do, and have never done, is blindly drink whatever Kool-Aid the two major political parties are serving, and embarrass myself over and over again by defending the indefensible actions, acts of hypocrisy, and blatant lies of a particular political party.

I agree.

Did you vote for Bush, or did you vote against Al Gore and John Kerry?

Incidentally, I didn't vote for Bush, or Kerry, or Gore. Some say I threw my vote away. I think I voted for "none of the above."
 
I haven't voted in any election for several years, and probably never will.
 
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Is it your assertion that the wars and the pharma plan are to blame for the situation we are in?
It is the concensus of all the Democratic party and a good chunk of the GOP that they are a part of the cause. You already know how I feel about the financial institutions and their role. Deregulation in the 80's and the mistaken belief that free trade is an obtainable goal are 2 more ideologies that helped the disaster along. Mentioning the tax breaks to the rich is like beating a dead horse, these last views are fundamental differances between us, all debated in previous threads.
 
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