1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum

What Interrogation Techniques are Acceptable?

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by GenSeneca, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    6,245
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    ={CaLiCo}= HQ
    Waterboarding, loud music, sleep deprivation, stress positions, use of harmless insects, slamming detainees into false walls, grabbing of faces, and many other non-lethal methods that do no permanent damage have all been deemed torture... So... What interrogation techniques will the squeamish hand-wringers allow?


    Is this too harsh?


    But seriously... I would like to know 3 things:

    1. Should suspects receive Miranda rights?

    2. Should suspects receive constitutional rights?

    3. What Can we do to get information from suspects?

    I'd like answers to those questions and please don't forget the list of interrogation techniques you would approve.

    We all know what you think is inappropriate, so please don't bore everyone with tripe about, "we shouldn't torture, so anything short of torture is fine with me" nonsense... that's a total cop-out answer and the kind of answer people who feel, rather than think, would give to such a question.

    None of the above list were considered torture by the people using the tactics. So if you are one who has complained about our use of those enhanced interrogation techniques, prove that you are willing to give the topic some thought, that you're not just a knee-jerk reactionary, by providing a list of techniques you would approve.
     
  2. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene

    Great thread Gen but none of them will give a serious reply. OH of course all of them will chime in that they should have Miranda rights and constitutional rights but none of them who are against what has been done will come out and say what they think should be done because they know how stupid it will sound.

    They should get a firm talking to
    We should be able to raise our voice

    thats about all they are willing to agree to and they will know just how frakin stupid it sounds so they will just rant about the rights violations and what they are against.

    Except for shaman who might tell you about the stock market :)
     
  3. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,009
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    land of 10,000 lakes and 2 senators again
    you know when you wine that no one will add anything of value to a thread...you should make sure you have first...just a thought.
     
  4. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    6,245
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    ={CaLiCo}= HQ
    She added more than you... Firm talking to... raising of ones voice... but the best part was pointing out that Shaman will be in here with his starter box of crayons to post completely unrelated material. Actually, now that we've pointed out his usual tactic, he will probably post something about the memos and how Bush & Cheney should be executed for war crimes. If we're really lucky, he'll add a picture....


    [​IMG]
    No Shaman... we said "go get something big on Bush", not "go get a big brush"...
     
  5. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,009
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    land of 10,000 lakes and 2 senators again
    First if you cant see how simulating drowning of a person 185 times does not equal torture...then really I don't know where to start. the so called "harmless insects" are used to make someone fear there life is in danger just the same, as they don't know if they are harmless. Basically most of these things are things done to make someone feel tough, and cool..not things that are actually found effective, or to get good Intel out of someone. Those who cry about, what if there is a bomb to go off in 24 hours, then we should be able to water board...Stop watching 24...news flash its not real. just looking at how many times they did it, and for how long...shows that guess what, its not going to save you. And I will guarantee I could make any single person in here, say what ever I wanted...if you let me do enough to them. Would that make it true? no. would it make the info usefull? no.

    Most intel people, CIA and other will tell you that you get more, and better info with other methods that are no torture or anthing that would even have to be debated.

    2. should suspects get constitutional rights? I am guessing you just mean those at Gitmo...and Yes they should. Also we have legal guidelines internationally that we have signed to, that we have to be held to. If you disagree with those, then you back out, you don't just ignore them. The reason behind the US constitution was a set of things we felt to be rights as people...these are no rights we though only people in these borders should have...we just happen to only have power within these borders. They are the goals and best ideals of our nation...and when we say, but for the rest of you...they don't apply...shows that we don't truly believe that those laws should be self evident. Also , one only has to look at the outrage over the woman convicted in Iran to see how we think our ideas and laws should apply to our people in the world outside the US. Iran using our own guidelines we have shown, could do everything we have just stated to her, and we would have zero moral grounds to be upset. Fact is she is a Spy and it was proven in court, and they have a security need to know what she may have told us, so they should water board her, strip her naked, throw her against the well, not let her sleep for days, keep her in freezing cells,and then stick her in a coffin....why not? Well because the trial was a sham and we cant see the evidence..well that's for national security.....Our treatment of detainees in the last 8 years, gives us about zero moral grounds to say anything to any other nation who could take a US Citizen and do this to them...so long as they just claim national security. The Party of the "Moral Majority" has taken a huge chunk of the little Moral Sway this nation had left in it.

    3. what can we do? you know that's a really long list....put them on trial, jail them, play them against each other, "befriend them and get them to talk" there are many ways we have got people to talk...do you think cops just beat everyone they arrest to get info? Since when did tourture become the only way to make someone talk.


    to sum it up, its against the law, its Morally wrong, it has been a great tool for the extremist to get more people to join them, it is a standard we would never stand for against our own people in some other nation, its saps our moral authority to speak in the world, the Info you get is other worthless as you have no idea if its true or not. And know of at least one case where we tortured someone, and the Military lawyers let them go because they knew that nothing they got would hold up anymore because of it...it wrecked the case. Much like the Cops planting evidence on OJ...even if he did do it...the planting made it hard to make the case...and set him free.
     
  6. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,009
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    land of 10,000 lakes and 2 senators again
    actually I was typing that post above.....
     
  7. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    6,245
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    ={CaLiCo}= HQ
    You spent a lot of time bellyaching about torture... No, I don't think waterboarding is torture but I'm also not advocating or excusing the use of the tactic.

    Choppin off daniel pearls head, that was torture, the treatment of the jews in nazi germany, that was torture. Whatever it is you say is acceptable now, someone will call torture.... you could put them in 5 star hotels with maids and room service, some jackass will call it torture.

    I've never watched 24... keep swinging at those stereotypes, you're good at it.

    2. should suspects get constitutional rights? I am guessing you just mean those at Gitmo--Pocket
    You guessed wrong... and what happened to #1? Miranda rights... the Right to remain silent, right to an attorney, etc. etc. If you give them Miranda rights, then how would you ever get ANY information out of them?

    As for Constitutional rights... we pick up people in the field and that's where we begin the questioning, they don't just magically show up at Gitmo. Also, Gitmo only holds about 250 suspects, so they have to pretty hard core terrorists to end up in Gitmo.

    3. what can we do? you know that's a really long list.--Pocket
    So your answer is that we should treat those suspected of killing, attempting to kill, or conspiring to kill our soldiers the same as we would treat any 2 bit criminal here in the US?

    its Morally wrong--Pocket
    I don't know why I bothered asking people like you to keep your speeches about what we shouldn't do and why we shouldn't do it to yourself... thats all you are prepared to talk about and I've heard all that same drivel before.

    I wanted you to think a little deeper than what you had and come up with interrogation techniques that our soldiers and CIA can use in the field... your answer was 2 sentences out of 3 paragraphs that suggested we treat them like common criminals.

    If torture is wrong, should we continue Rendition? I mean, are you upset that people were "tortured" or were you simply offended that it was the US doing the "torture"?

    You do realize that Bush used rendition, and now Obama has further widened our use of rendition due to our abandoning of harsh interrogation techniques. Rendition is handing suspects over to other countries so they can torture suspects. Is handing over suspects for another country to torture any different than torturing those people ourselves? I think its far worse, most of those suspects face real torture at the hands of our allies in the region.

    Fewer people are being subjected to waterboarding and caterpillers, but those who would have been given that treatment are now, through expanded rendition, subject to blowtorches, crushed fingers, gouged eyes and worse. I bet they'd rather be waterboarded.
     
  8. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    3,215
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Alaska
    Excellent thread Seneca.

    Some thoughts come to mind here, and I am going to use some more generic concepts than dealing with specifics, for instance those that are in Gitmo.

    1. I believe the US should treat foreign POWs/detainees to a reasonable level that we would expect/demand that another foreign country would treat an American in a similar situation.
    Meaning that they should have access to treatment as agreed to in the various Geneva Conventions we are signators to. Where applicable, access to thier own foreign embassy, and to be actually charged with something, and have habeas corpus apply.

    2. In terms of interrogation methods, again the US should apply the same standards we would demand from other countries if an American was in the same situation. Plain and simple.
    I say this for a few reasons. Firstly, it has shown that time and time again, torture or hard interrogation tecniques are often not effective, or unnecessary. As was mentioned earlier, if someone were to waterboard me, I would probably tell them whatever it was I thought they wanted to hear and it would be entirely false, because it would harden me against the detainers and want the treatment to end.
    Various police departments have the world over have come up some very effective methods of getting a suspect to talk without those methods. If you dont believe me, tune into the A&E show "The First 48" sometime. It chronicles real life murder investigations and they dont need those methods to do an effective job.

    Secondly, I believe America should take the high road when it comes to this issue. We are obviously militarily superior and much wealthier, but what makes America great is the concepts it was founded on and still to a large extent enjoys to this day. Freedom under a fair and just legal system. When we lower ourselves to the actions of lesser states, we lose in a number of ways.
    We could no longer claim having the moral high ground and the credibility that comes along with that. In which case our allies become less eager to help us in a number of efforts.
    Also, it increases the motivation for another 9-11 type event. The methods we adopted under the Bush Administration put American interests around the world at higher risk. And who knows how many American troops paid the price for this. Nor do I think it matters less now that we have moved away from this policy, because the damage has been done. One thing cannot be changed, and that is the fact that a small group of highly motivated, decently equipped and trained people who wish us harm, can cause a great deal of terror in this country. What matters most is how we respond, learn lessons from the crimes, and actually prevent this from happening again.
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    7,829
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Careful what you ask-for......especially if you ask Condi's guy!!!!

    :p
     
  10. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    7,829
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    .....And, Condi's guy!!!!!

    I hope you Bush-fans fully-completed your efforts at Lil' Dumbya's "Tap-Dancing" Academy!!!!

    [​IMG]

    :p
     
  11. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    327
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    South of the Haggis Munching Line
    In Northern Ireland a firm favorite was to fly two or three suspects up in a helicopter until they could see they were at a reasonable height over one of the lochs, blindfold them and sit them at the cargo door with their legs out on the skid. Then after a bit more flying questions would be asked. Now these boys were tough SOB, they were nervous but weren't exactly going to let on without a fight for one thing they had rights and all that tosh.....so they just needed a prod as it were! Anyway after a couple of questions and not much information one would be ditched out the door with all the resulting screaming etc. etc. ...... after which they couldn't speak fast enough and when they were finished they were ditched out the door too!..........about 2 ft off the ground.......apart from a change of underwear they were cool.

    But the best thing was they'd never admit what had happened or they mates would have been less than happy with them...... kneecapping was the favoured non-lethal punishment for talking to the security forces and with the IRA non-lethal was not common.

    Anyway...... I think from memory the best methods were used by the North Vietnamese on the ECM officers that used to fly the back seats of the F100s, they basically took them to isolated places way from any other human contact the interrogator bonded with the officers until there was a raport going and then used hope and fear to get the information out of them. These methods were refined as time went on by the Russians and the North Vietnamese but were apparently successful.
     
  12. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    7,829
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It appears the NeoCons had plenty-of-time to send-out questionaires!!!​

     
  13. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,776
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Horse Country
    I came out before and said that clearly waterboarding was torture. I even changed my mind after reading what others said to arrive at that conclusion. But after the release of the memos I am not so sure.

    Putting a bag over a persons head and dunking them for 20 seconds at most with no expectation that any water would get into the lungs does not sound like torture any more.

    The memos went a long way to prove that so called torture was rarely used (about 3 times), was used judiciously, and was used with effectiveness every time it was used resulting in further captures of real bad guys.

    Waterboarding can be described in such a way that it sounds like torture but it can also be described in such a way that it does not. The way it was described in the memos that depict what actually happened do not sound like torture.
     
  14. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,776
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Horse Country
    "XXXXXX
    This message is hidden because XXXXXX is on your ignore list. "

    I love seeing that message!
     
  15. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    7,829
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    WHEW!!!!!!!

    Where've YOU been??!!!!!!

    :eek:

     
Loading...

Share This Page