What Interrogation Techniques are Acceptable?

[BigRob]

And if some other nation did this to US Citizens...I am sure you would be fine with it right?

People do a lot worse to US citizens. I would take this over getting my head cut off though, yes.

But what does that have to do with anything? Al Qaeda is not a nation, and the United States fights in uniform and following the rules of the Geneva Conventions, therefore entitling our soldiers to those protections, so yes I would be upset.

However, our special forces, if captured during a mission are not entitled to, and will not get, POW status, and yes I am fine with that as well, sine they did not abide by the Geneva Conventions entitling them to such treatment.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Well there are released memos describing our tactics (which is hardly torture) and then there are leaked memos and statements from both sides that we got effective intelligence from it. So which side can you believe? It seems up in the air.

ones that dont come from the Bush white house

 

[BigRob]

Nor should we be doing things that we prosecuted when the tables were turned.

Posted by Genseca:



They should have the same rights as POW. Inventing a new term that means that they have no rights at all is reprehensible.



What can we do? We can do anything that is within the scope of the Geneva Convention.

How can you say we can do anything that is within the scope of the Geneva Convention when the Geneva Convention clearly shows they are not entitled to POW status, yet you claim they should be POW's and we should abide by the Conventions.

We are abiding by the Conventions by not giving them POW status.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

People do a lot worse to US citizens. I would take this over getting my head cut off though, yes.

But what does that have to do with anything? Al Qaeda is not a nation, and the United States fights in uniform and following the rules of the Geneva Conventions, therefore entitling our soldiers to those protections, so yes I would be upset.

However, our special forces, if captured during a mission are not entitled to, and will not get, POW status, and yes I am fine with that as well, sine they did not abide by the Geneva Conventions entitling them to such treatment.

what about US Citizens , who some other nation just makes cliams about, with no proof? does not matter? And why cant we waterboard POW's?

 

[BigRob]

ones that dont come from the Bush white house

I must not have realized that the Obama pick for DNI was really only a Bush stooge when he said we got quality intelligence from these techniques.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

You spent a lot of time bellyaching about torture... No, I don't think waterboarding is torture but I'm also not advocating or excusing the use of the tactic.

Choppin off daniel pearls head, that was torture, the treatment of the jews in nazi germany, that was torture. Whatever it is you say is acceptable now, someone will call torture.... you could put them in 5 star hotels with maids and room service, some jackass will call it torture.

I've never watched 24... keep swinging at those stereotypes, you're good at it.

2. should suspects get constitutional rights? I am guessing you just mean those at Gitmo--Pocket
You guessed wrong... and what happened to #1? Miranda rights... the Right to remain silent, right to an attorney, etc. etc. If you give them Miranda rights, then how would you ever get ANY information out of them?

As for Constitutional rights... we pick up people in the field and that's where we begin the questioning, they don't just magically show up at Gitmo. Also, Gitmo only holds about 250 suspects, so they have to pretty hard core terrorists to end up in Gitmo.

3. what can we do? you know that's a really long list.--Pocket
So your answer is that we should treat those suspected of killing, attempting to kill, or conspiring to kill our soldiers the same as we would treat any 2 bit criminal here in the US?

its Morally wrong--Pocket
I don't know why I bothered asking people like you to keep your speeches about what we shouldn't do and why we shouldn't do it to yourself... thats all you are prepared to talk about and I've heard all that same drivel before.

I wanted you to think a little deeper than what you had and come up with interrogation techniques that our soldiers and CIA can use in the field... your answer was 2 sentences out of 3 paragraphs that suggested we treat them like common criminals.

If torture is wrong, should we continue Rendition? I mean, are you upset that people were "tortured" or were you simply offended that it was the US doing the "torture"?

You do realize that Bush used rendition, and now Obama has further widened our use of rendition due to our abandoning of harsh interrogation techniques. Rendition is handing suspects over to other countries so they can torture suspects. Is handing over suspects for another country to torture any different than torturing those people ourselves? I think its far worse, most of those suspects face real torture at the hands of our allies in the region.

Fewer people are being subjected to waterboarding and caterpillers, but those who would have been given that treatment are now, through expanded rendition, subject to blowtorches, crushed fingers, gouged eyes and worse. I bet they'd rather be waterboarded.

Silly me thinking morals and effectiveness should play a part in if we should Torture people, And that I did not just sit her and list 10000 things we can do...And yes, guess what people kill people in the US, and we somehow find ways to get them to talk...and dont have to torture them. that they are not from the US and killed or tried to, does not change that fact.

 

[BigRob]

what about US Citizens , who some other nation just makes cliams about, with no proof? does not matter? And why cant we waterboard POW's?

I already said no to US citizens because protections for US citizens are spelled out in the Constitution.

We do not waterboard POW's because if you follow the rules of the Geneva Conventions you are entitled to POW protection, and what this means is spelled out in many respects in the conventions. If these people want to abide by the Geneva Conventions then they can get the protections of it, but not before.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I must not have realized that the Obama pick for DNI was really only a Bush stooge when he said we got quality intelligence from these techniques.

I have not seen that report, one dick saying we did. And others have reported we got nothing of real value. And even if we did, nothing says that doing this stuff is the reason, that its legal, or that there are not better ways.

 

[BigRob]

Silly me thinking morals and effectiveness should play a part in if we should Torture people, And that I did not just sit her and list 10000 things we can do...And yes, guess what people kill people in the US, and we somehow find ways to get them to talk...and dont have to torture them. that they are not from the US and killed or tried to, does not change that fact.

War is not a law enforcement exercise. You going to go to the mountains of Afghanistan and take forensics?

 

[BigRob]

I have not seen that report, one dick saying we did. And others have reported we got nothing of real value. And even if we did, nothing says that doing this stuff is the reason, that its legal, or that there are not better ways.

And all the so called torture memos really say is that we waterboarded the three masterminds of 9/11. Sorry but my sympathy level is pretty much non-existent.

What they also should show you is that all those claims about "what was going on at GITMO" were totally bogus.

 

[GenSeneca]

Silly me thinking morals and effectiveness should play a part in if we should Torture people, And that I did not just sit her and list 10000 things we can do...And yes, guess what people kill people in the US, and we somehow find ways to get them to talk...and dont have to torture them. that they are not from the US and killed or tried to, does not change that fact.

The level of ignorance in making such statements is shocking, even for you.

First, and its a shame you need this pointed out to you, criminals we pick up in the US are NOT soldiers fighting against our government/police/military.

There is a reasonable expectation that a person in the US has fingerprints, a Social Security number, Birth Certificate or other form of identification on record and readily available to the investigators. Finding friends, employers, family members, criminal records and other relevant information is equally likely to be readily available.

Little to NONE of that is available to our troops in the field or those operating detention camps. (we operate more camps than just Gitmo. The detainees in Gitmo are the worst of the worst and represent about 1/50th of those in custody... but to hear you tell it, Gitmo is THE detention camp and its filled with innocent farmers)

Logistically, do you have any comprehension how many non-police/military support personnel would be necessary for to us to treat those we pick up on the battlefield to the same rights and procedures we give suspected criminals inside the US? No, you clearly do not.

You claim the things we did were morally wrong... but you're incapable of delineating the specifics of this "morality".... just as you're incapable of outlining specific techniques you would allow for interrogations... and the few things you do provide completely ignore reality and the limitations we are up against.

Lastly... You didn't comment on Rendition. If its "Morally" wrong for us to "torture" people by waterboarding them... are we morally justified in turning those same people over to our allies who sever limbs, crush bones and impose horrible, unimaginable, disfiguring and permanent pain or death?

 

[Pandora]

The level of ignorance in making such statements is shocking, even for you.

First, and its a shame you need this pointed out to you, criminals we pick up in the US are NOT soldiers fighting against our government/police/military.

There is a reasonable expectation that a person in the US has fingerprints, a Social Security number, Birth Certificate or other form of identification on record and readily available to the investigators. Finding friends, employers, family members, criminal records and other relevant information is equally likely to be readily available.

Little to NONE of that is available to our troops in the field or those operating detention camps. (we operate more camps than just Gitmo. The detainees in Gitmo are the worst of the worst and represent about 1/50th of those in custody... but to hear you tell it, Gitmo is THE detention camp and its filled with innocent farmers)

Logistically, do you have any comprehension how many non-police/military support personnel would be necessary for to us to treat those we pick up on the battlefield to the same rights and procedures we give suspected criminals inside the US? No, you clearly do not.

You claim the things we did were morally wrong... but you're incapable of delineating the specifics of this "morality".... just as you're incapable of outlining specific techniques you would allow for interrogations... and the few things you do provide completely ignore reality and the limitations we are up against.

Lastly... You didn't comment on Rendition. If its "Morally" wrong for us to "torture" people by waterboarding them... are we morally justified in turning those same people over to our allies who sever limbs, crush bones and impose horrible, unimaginable, disfiguring and permanent pain or death?

So far have I been right?

They complain about whats been done and never say what they are willing to do for the information.

 

[GenSeneca]

So far have I been right?

They complain about whats been done and never say what they are willing to do for the information.

Spot on... They all exhibit the Nirvana Fallacy. They don't know what the perfect solution is, but they won't support any specific measures that they don't think are perfect.

Care to guess whether any of them can, or will, attempt a delineation of "Morality"? I don't think they can... like the above fallacy, they cannot define what it is, they can only tell you what it is not.

If you have not watched the videos in my blog, you should check out Tyranny over the mind of men.

Part 3 & 4
"They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All of their identifications consist of negation... They proceed to demand you consider it as knowledge.... Their definitions are not acts of defining but of wiping out."

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Excellent thread Seneca.

Some thoughts come to mind here, and I am going to use some more generic concepts than dealing with specifics, for instance those that are in Gitmo.

1. I believe the US should treat foreign POWs/detainees to a reasonable level that we would expect/demand that another foreign country would treat an American in a similar situation.
Meaning that they should have access to treatment as agreed to in the various Geneva Conventions we are signators to. Where applicable, access to thier own foreign embassy, and to be actually charged with something, and have habeas corpus apply.

2. In terms of interrogation methods, again the US should apply the same standards we would demand from other countries if an American was in the same situation. Plain and simple.
I say this for a few reasons. Firstly, it has shown that time and time again, torture or hard interrogation tecniques are often not effective, or unnecessary. As was mentioned earlier, if someone were to waterboard me, I would probably tell them whatever it was I thought they wanted to hear and it would be entirely false, because it would harden me against the detainers and want the treatment to end.
Various police departments have the world over have come up some very effective methods of getting a suspect to talk without those methods. If you dont believe me, tune into the A&E show "The First 48" sometime. It chronicles real life murder investigations and they dont need those methods to do an effective job.

Secondly, I believe America should take the high road when it comes to this issue. We are obviously militarily superior and much wealthier, but what makes America great is the concepts it was founded on and still to a large extent enjoys to this day. Freedom under a fair and just legal system. When we lower ourselves to the actions of lesser states, we lose in a number of ways.
We could no longer claim having the moral high ground and the credibility that comes along with that. In which case our allies become less eager to help us in a number of efforts.
Also, it increases the motivation for another 9-11 type event. The methods we adopted under the Bush Administration put American interests around the world at higher risk. And who knows how many American troops paid the price for this. Nor do I think it matters less now that we have moved away from this policy, because the damage has been done. One thing cannot be changed, and that is the fact that a small group of highly motivated, decently equipped and trained people who wish us harm, can cause a great deal of terror in this country. What matters most is how we respond, learn lessons from the crimes, and actually prevent this from happening again.

I think Bunz covered it very well.

 

[Pandora]

Spot on... They all exhibit the Nirvana Fallacy. They don't know what the perfect solution is, but they won't support any specific measures that they don't think are perfect.

Care to guess whether any of them can, or will, attempt a delineation of "Morality"? I don't think they can... like the above fallacy, they cannot define what it is, they can only tell you what it is not.

If you have not watched the videos in my blog, you should check out Tyranny over the mind of men.

Part 3 & 4
"They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All of their identifications consist of negation... They proceed to demand you consider it as knowledge.... Their definitions are not acts of defining but of wiping out."

I am so tired and have to get up early, its take your child to work day so I have to get there early so I wont get behind. I will watch the video tomorrow when I get home.

It feels good to be right, I knew I would be right about this.


Now here is a scary thought... right now the people in charge are just like the bloggers here who only know what they dont want to do or what they thing is wrong but are not sure what they should do...and our safety and fate is in their hands