Abortion and Morality

The fact that someone could minimize rape to the point of comparing it to the trauma inflicted by a barking dog to me shows an insensitivity on par with those who view a fetus as nothing more then a lump of flesh.

First, I never said that rape was no worse than being barked at by a dog. It was suggested that the psychological trauma of rape should be an immediate and valid reason to kill a child that might result from the act. I pointed out that the trauma itself is less important than how deeply the victim is effected. I stand by that statement and await for you, or anyone else to prove that the source of a trauma is more important than how profoundly your psyche is affected.
 
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First, I never said that rape was no worse than being barked at by a dog. It was suggested that the psychological trauma of rape should be an immediate and valid reason to kill a child that might result from the act. I pointed out that the trauma itself is less important than how deeply the victim is effected. I stand by that statement and await for you, or anyone else to prove that the source of a trauma is more important than how profoundly your psyche is affected.

I see what you are saying. Trauma in and of itself is not sufficient reason to abort.

However - being impregnated against your will is.
 
You asked me that before and believe it or not it has been going round and round in my mind. I am very close to thinking yes. But I am not there yet.

I could say that I could compromize on the rape issue by way of getting along but such an agreement would be meaningless. The thing is that if roe is overturned because the case for personhood for the unborn is made (the only valid reason for doing so), it won't matter how the child is concieved, it will be a human being with 14th amendment protections. The very reason that abortificents will no longer be allowed. Human beings have a right to live that outweighs all other rights.

I will use the same argument I used before - you are already singling out pregnant women as a special group.

Reality is - pregnant women and unborn fetus' ARE a unique group of humans very different then any other in that rights are so tightly intertwined.

I am not singling out anyone. That is the flaw in your argument. My arguments apply equally to every single one of us. All rights are secondary to the right to live.

And every persecuted and murdered group has been unique for some reason. Any tyrant can come up with a good reason to deny protection to some group or another.
 
I see what you are saying. Trauma in and of itself is not sufficient reason to abort.

However - being impregnated against your will is.

Okay, I had to jump in for a bit here. Coyote, the whole intolerable part of a pregnancy resulting from rape is strictly due to the trauma. At least this is what so many here in this thread have stated.

If I understand your statement, you are saying the trauma itself is insufficient for abortion, but the impregnation under violence is? I'm having a hard time understanding that logic.
 
It was suggested that the psychological trauma of rape should be an immediate and valid reason to kill a child that might result from the act.

That was not my intention and if you perceived my posts that way, I apologize for the misconception.
 
You asked me that before and believe it or not it has been going round and round in my mind. I am very close to thinking yes. But I am not there yet.

Coyote, APPLAUSE APPLAUSE! I assume your remark is in response to Pale's question about no abortions except in cases of rape.

Personally, I agree totally with Pale that ALL rights are secondary to life, as he's stated so consistently. I would admit, however, that if we can even get to the point of this standard, it would be a huge step in the right direction. The basic right to and respect for life would start to prevail in our society.

Answering all questions, solving all problems? No. But a great place to start. I sincerely hope you will continue to think objectively on this.

BTW - LOVE your hat! ;)
 
That was not my intention and if you perceived my posts that way, I apologize for the misconception.

VYO, I didn't single anyone out. I used the word MANY here as exactly that. The whole discussion has shifted from the general issue to the specific (primarily!) of pregnancy/abortion resulting from rape. For those advocating this, defending what they perceive as a woman's right to make this choice under this circumstance, trauma has been the foundational "logic" supplied for the majority of them.

Not all. I've been in and out of this thread as my time permits, and so I can't recall even where your position is. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it don't, it's most likely someone else's...:cool:
 
In general, what happens when a woman is raped? I'm talking about the whole package of events, from the vicious violation to the - what exactly? - in the future? The rape can be a street crime, a drug crime, a result of date rape, a violent physical assault that leads to and ends in rape, the planned assault of a serial perpetrator, spousal abuse, etc. It can even be from a woman who was maybe out for the night, having a good time, things get out of hand, she says no and he won't have that. A wide variety of the original event.

The violent act is done in a limited period of time. The aftermath continues, and most of it is intertwined with the trauma. A woman is raped, may or may not want to report the rape. For the one who does, she is taken to the hospital and again suffers under the humility of an exam, pictures taken, swabs taken, police report, suspect arrested (if we all in society are fortunate!), woman views lineup, does or doesn't identify rapist, interviewed by prosecutor's office, DNA tests if available, testimony in court, cross-examination by a lawyer trying to get client off, trying to retain composure throughout the trial. Awaiting the verdict, which guilty or not-guilty carry their own string of issues. Support groups. Counseling. Supportive friends and family.

I'm a woman. I've known women who have had abortions, I've known women who were raped. Three to be exact. One of those did have a resulting pregnancy. She was married. Yeah, she was married to a man. Believe me, that many suffered damn near to what she did. He was with her every step of the way.

Do not assume that a man is incapable for having compassion and concern for a woman who is going through this, simple because he is a man. When they discovered she was pregnant, chronologically they were able to determine the pregnancy was nearly 100% probably resulting from the rape.

To make a long story short, the overweening fact determining their decision to follow through, have the baby, keep the baby, and raise the baby was the simple knowledge that regardless, it was HER child.

That daughter graduated from high school five years ago. And you know, I don't think there was a shred of the memory of the pain and violence of her forced impregnation. There was too much love, joy, pride and hope for this daughter.

The daughter was the second of four siblings. Her older sister and two younger brothers were loved no more than she. An additional and special irony is that this daughter is the one who gave the couple their first grandchild just a month ago.

From a woman devastated by a home breaking and entry, robbery, beating and rape, she is a testimony of all that is good, strong and worthwhile in humanity. In particular, she is a true "profile in courage" of the indomitable spirit of women throughout time in the very most dire of circumstances.

If it were me? I'd hope to have the courage to follow exactly in her steps, from start to finish.
 
To make a long story short, the overweening fact determining their decision to follow through, have the baby, keep the baby, and raise the baby was the simple knowledge that regardless, it was HER child.

That is a wonderful story of human strength over a horrible event.

But...in my mind the important thing is this: she was able to make a choice.

Does anyone have that right to remove the choice from her under those circumstances?
 
Coyote, APPLAUSE APPLAUSE! I assume your remark is in response to Pale's question about no abortions except in cases of rape.

Personally, I agree totally with Pale that ALL rights are secondary to life, as he's stated so consistently. I would admit, however, that if we can even get to the point of this standard, it would be a huge step in the right direction. The basic right to and respect for life would start to prevail in our society.

Answering all questions, solving all problems? No. But a great place to start. I sincerely hope you will continue to think objectively on this.

BTW - LOVE your hat! ;)

Thank you- that's my pimp hat :cool:
Thinking about life in regards to abortion, and respect for all life started with conversations with a person who is very Christian, conservative in most things, liberal in others - but feels all life is sacred. He opposes abortion, and the death penalty for that reason. I respect that. It's consistent.
 
Okay, I had to jump in for a bit here. Coyote, the whole intolerable part of a pregnancy resulting from rape is strictly due to the trauma. At least this is what so many here in this thread have stated.

If I understand your statement, you are saying the trauma itself is insufficient for abortion, but the impregnation under violence is? I'm having a hard time understanding that logic.

The trauma of the event is horrible. But to me - my feeling is no woman should be forced to bear a child against her will ever. She should never be relegated to the status of a broodmare. Impregnation through rape is most definately against her will. There was nothing she could have done to prevent it, and she did nothing irresponsible or reckless. She committed no crime but she is being punished.
 
If you can demonstrate why the child should be denied its one and only chance to live. Getting around that one is a corker isn't it?

No child should be denied it's chance to live.

No woman should be forced to bear a child against her will.

When those two rights clash, the woman's right to her body is stronger. The life within her has no sentience, no brain, no awareness of pain or what it is gaining or losing. She does.

She committed no crime to deserve this and no one is going to help her out of it, but herself. She should at least have a choice.
 
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Thank you- that's my pimp hat :cool:
Thinking about life in regards to abortion, and respect for all life started with conversations with a person who is very Christian, conservative in most things, liberal in others - but feels all life is sacred. He opposes abortion, and the death penalty for that reason. I respect that. It's consistent.

I still don't understand how you see any parallel between opposing killing innocent unborns and killing heinous rapists and murderers.
 
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