Abortion

[palerider]

So. Does one human being's "right" to not be inconvenienced really outweigh another human being's actual right to live?

 

[Coyote]

Oh dear....you knew I would have to answer this ....


Despite my inability to refute the logic of our last conversation - I still believe in a seperation of "person" and "human being". I do not think abortion should ever be something undertaken lightly and I do not think most women do so. However until the fetus has brainwaves, the mother's rights overide any presumed rights it might have. It's her body and no other person has any right to force an unwanted choice on her - whether it's the government of China forcing abortions on mothers to be or a group of strangers preventing abortion in the US.

 

[palerider]

Oh dear....you knew I would have to answer this ....


Despite my inability to refute the logic of our last conversation - I still believe in a seperation of "person" and "human being". I do not think abortion should ever be something undertaken lightly and I do not think most women do so. However until the fetus has brainwaves, the mother's rights overide any presumed rights it might have. It's her body and no other person has any right to force an unwanted choice on her - whether it's the government of China forcing abortions on mothers to be or a group of strangers preventing abortion in the US.

By "forcing" an unwanted choice on her, are you talking about rape? Because if you aren't, then you aren't talking about "forcing" anything but are instead, calling the natural consequeces of a consentual act force which is simply not a valid argument. We know that less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape.

 

[Coyote]

By "forcing" an unwanted choice on her, are you talking about rape? Because if you aren't, then you aren't talking about "forcing" anything but are instead, calling the natural consequeces of a consentual act force which is simply not a valid argument. We know that less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape.

Rape, consentual sex where a condom failed or, yes - "inconvenience". It's her body, no one has the right to control decisions regarding it except for her. On the part of rape though - the majority of rapes go unreported.

 

[palerider]

the majority of rapes go unreported.

How could you know that without statistics?

 

[JavaBlack]

...

I tend to think that the idea of using abortion as a form of birth control is pretty disturbing. But there are cases where I can see reasons to abort:
1. rape
2. the child will be born with a terrible dysfunction that will kill it or keep it from living any kind of real life.
3. the woman's health is heavily and long-term endangered by the birth.

But even when abortions are illegal, infanticide and garage abortions are common.
I think it is more important to focus on the causes of abortion and what can be done to remove social causes than to criminalize abortion...
And at any rate, it should be up to the states.

After all not everyone seems to agree a fetus is a living human being. If we cannot agree on that point, no argument will work for either side.

 

[Coyote]

I tend to think that the idea of using abortion as a form of birth control is pretty disturbing. But there are cases where I can see reasons to abort:
1. rape
2. the child will be born with a terrible dysfunction that will kill it or keep it from living any kind of real life.
3. the woman's health is heavily and long-term endangered by the birth.

I do not like the idea of using abortion as birth control either but making it illegal except for the most stringent circumstances is a bit of a slippery slope.

For one thing -if it is only legal in cases of rape then that makes the aguement against "killing a human being" hypocritical - you still choosing to kill something you deem innocent (you in general, not you specific). You're making some sort of determination that the mother's rights outweigh the fetus. For me personally, I feel no woman should have to bear a child conceived against her will.

With number 2, I see another slippery slope and this one bothers me tremendously. Where do you draw a line in respect to defects? Spina Bifida? Many children with this defect go on to live good and productive and happy lives. Down's syndrom? These are still children capable of joy, life, and love.

With 3 - I agree.

But even when abortions are illegal, infanticide and garage abortions are common.
I think it is more important to focus on the causes of abortion and what can be done to remove social causes than to criminalize abortion...
And at any rate, it should be up to the states.

After all not everyone seems to agree a fetus is a living human being. If we cannot agree on that point, no argument will work for either side.

Exactly...criminalizing it won't stop it. It should be safe, legal, and rare.

 

[Coyote]

How could you know that without statistics?

Unreported to law enforcement.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html
http://www.sccadvasa.org/articles/63.pdf

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Rape, consentual sex where a condom failed or, yes - "inconvenience". It's her body, no one has the right to control decisions regarding it except for her. On the part of rape though - the majority of rapes go unreported.

The problem is -- it's not her body. It's the baby's body. That's like saying that if someone store's their things in your garage, then they by definition, are your things.

 

[Coyote]

The problem is -- it's not her body. It's the baby's body. That's like saying that if someone store's their things in your garage, then they by definition, are your things.

A person's body is not like a garage.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

A person's body is not like a garage.

Okay, a dumpster.

 

[steveox]

A woman should serve 10 years in prison if she aborts her baby. Her doctor should get 25 years in prison for performing an abortion.If Dr Kevorkian served time for assited suicides then abortion doctors should get the same sentence Dr Kevorkian got.

 

[Coyote]

A woman should serve 10 years in prison if she aborts her baby. Her doctor should get 25 years in prison for performing an abortion.If Dr Kevorkian served time for assited suicides then abortion doctors should get the same sentence Dr Kevorkian got.

What should the man get?

 

[Coyote]

Okay, a dumpster.

Well...considering the crap men dump into it, maybe you're right

 

[steveox]

What should the man get?

Scott Peterson is getting the chair. Is that fair when a girl put her baby in a dumpster and not get a murder charge?