al-Qaida number 2 killed

Our resident Leftists are heavily engaged in some historical revisionism...

Democrats before Iraq War started....


Just a few highlights from the many statements made by Democrats in that video:

  • Saddam Hussein certainly has chemical and biological weapons, there's no question about that. - Nancy Pelosi, 2002
  • Saddam Hussein has thumbed his nose at the international community and I think the President (G.W.Bush) is approaching this in the right fashion. - Harry Reid, 2002
  • Do you believe we can have disarmament without regime change? - Tim Russert, 2002, posed this question to Hillary Clinton during an interview, her answer is below:
  • I doubt it. I can support the President. I can support an action against Saddam Hussein because I believe it's in the long term interest of our national security. - Hillary Clinton, 2002, answering Russert's question
The Ministry of Truth:

The Ministry of Truth is involved with news media, entertainment, the fine arts and educational books. Its purpose is to rewrite history and change the facts to fit Party doctrine for propaganda effect.

And oddly I have never voted for any of those people...so your point is....

There where many Dems who stood up and said no to this waste of a war...And the intel put out for the public...all fell apart...some of it was known to be false when it was even put out...

If you want to run on the war was ok because they where in-compliant but they did not lie.. so be it..does not bring back 4000 American dead..countless civilians dead, Trillions in spending..or the take away the power we gave to Iran.

The Yellow cake from Niger...was known to be faulse...when it was given as proof not after the fact. 1 the story did not make sense and 2 the documents where known to be fake.

The Tubes used as proof...where known not WMD grade but the proper grade for what they where said to be for. at the time. not after.

Like I said..the more they talked the less I believed the case...and I figured it was likely they did before they started there case...But as more and more of what they was was things I already knew to be known to be false..and reading more reports suggesting that there was not MWD such as intel we got from Saddams Bro in law...I doubted more and more.

And pointing saying look what a dems says does not change it was the Republicans who pushed this, it was them in charge , it was them who poorly planned for the invasion, and it was them who made the call to do it.
 
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There where many Dems who stood up and said no to this waste of a war.
There were Republicans who said the same thing but you pretend like they never stood with those Dems to oppose the war.

If you want to run on the war was ok because they where in-compliant but they did not lie.. so be it..does not bring back 4000 American dead..countless civilians dead, Trillions in spending..or the take away the power we gave to Iran.
I opposed Iraq from the start but the fact remains that both parties were tripping over each other in their rush to go to war. Blaming Republicans and pretending the Democrats weren't just as eager and willing is some serious historical revisionism on your part.

The Yellow cake from Niger...was known to be faulse...

The 550 metric tons of yellow cake uranium we found in Iraq was very real.

And pointing saying look what a dems says does not change it was the Republicans who pushed this, it was them in charge , it was them who poorly planned for the invasion, and it was them who made the call to do it.
Both parties pushed for war in Iraq, both parties planned the invasion, both parties voted to go to war. So blaming Republicans and letting the Dems off the hook, while typical for you, is just another example of your blatant dishonesty.
 
There were Republicans who said the same thing but you pretend like they never stood with those Dems to oppose the war.


I opposed Iraq from the start but the fact remains that both parties were tripping over each other in their rush to go to war. Blaming Republicans and pretending the Democrats weren't just as eager and willing is some serious historical revisionism on your part.



The 550 metric tons of yellow cake uranium we found in Iraq was very real.


Both parties pushed for war in Iraq, both parties planned the invasion, both parties voted to go to war. So blaming Republicans and letting the Dems off the hook, while typical for you, is just another example of your blatant dishonesty.

yea because lets just pretend Dems wanted the Iraq war as much as the republicans and even more so the white house...

and having yellow cake is actually one of the reasons why we knew the Documents where fake..we knew he had it and did not need to buy it from Niger...But yet the white house went with it anyway..
 
So... who wants the job of #2 in Al Quaeda? That seems like a death sentence.

Also, is anyone #1 now?
 
why do you say that? the number 2 for years is now the number 1.
I am surprised. Number 2s never make good number 1s. The approach to leadership is different for a #2 and for a #1.

So, if the real #2 was promoted to #1, then we can expect a failing of Al Quaeda. Good news for us!
 
I am surprised. Number 2s never make good number 1s. The approach to leadership is different for a #2 and for a #1.

So, if the real #2 was promoted to #1, then we can expect a failing of Al Quaeda. Good news for us!

be careful what you wish for, while not the inspiration Bin Laden was, he was also known as the brains behind the group....fact is that the biggest threat today is the lone wolf attack..and Yemen but still need to keep the pressure on the Pakistan based group.
 
That makes it sound like some kind of academic think tank, which, perhaps, it would have been without the help of it's more powerful members.

From their website:


Stronger military, increased defense spending, American, and only American leadership in the world. How do we go about bringing about such a thing?

What a total load of BS....Frankly people making the argument that you are making typically show a complete lack of historical contextual understanding.

The goals of PNAC are (as you post):
• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

If you go back to the start of the Cold War, and then the instances of terrorism that occurred throughout the previous decades, the lessons are fairly clear...terrorism (and other state aggression) is embolden when American looks weak...we see it over and over again in history..all throughout the Middle East especially.

Further, if you bother to read memoirs of any of those people, you will clearly see how they formulated their views and the historical precedence that supports them. For example, Rumsfeld was very concerned about the defense spending being so slow when he was in the Ford Administration, and (in his book) makes actually a very good case for why it was to low.

This is not a "conspiracy theory". It is a description of a group that wants
America to dominate the world with military force, and that wanted the US military to take action in Iraq back in the Clinton era.

Hardly...it is a description of you reading something into a statement that is not really there. They don't want to dominate the world by force, unless you somehow pretend that "modernize the military" means "take over the world."

Further, Clinton himself signed into law the Iraq Liberation Act which made "regime change" in Iraq the stated policy of the United States...that legislation passed the House by a margin of 360-38 and passed the Senate unanimously. Clinton himself said, "Iraq admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability, notably, 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production.... Over the past few months, as [the weapons inspectors] have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions by imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits.... It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons.... Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."

The PNAC was and is quite upfront about their agenda.

Yes...unfortunately people seem incapable of comprehending their stated agenda and instead just making things up about it.

You stated that their ideology is flawed...I am interested in what point specifically you are so opposed to?
 
• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

interesting, if I recall correctly you where backing the non democratic in Egypt..
Is that one of those ideals that only when it happens to be a good propaganda point to back up what you really want? Democracy is good..unless they vote the wrong guy or unless we like the strong man for our own interests?

Also spend more? we spend more then the 5 next nations combined in Military...we don't need to spend more. What we need is a way to have a more effective military without needing to use million dollar bombs to kill 5 guys with a week training on a jungle gym. Or to admit we can't afford the cost of being everyplace.
 
What a total load of BS....Frankly people making the argument that you are making typically show a complete lack of historical contextual understanding.

The goals of PNAC are (as you post):
• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

If you go back to the start of the Cold War, and then the instances of terrorism that occurred throughout the previous decades, the lessons are fairly clear...terrorism (and other state aggression) is embolden when American looks weak...we see it over and over again in history..all throughout the Middle East especially.

Further, if you bother to read memoirs of any of those people, you will clearly see how they formulated their views and the historical precedence that supports them. For example, Rumsfeld was very concerned about the defense spending being so slow when he was in the Ford Administration, and (in his book) makes actually a very good case for why it was to low.



Hardly...it is a description of you reading something into a statement that is not really there. They don't want to dominate the world by force, unless you somehow pretend that "modernize the military" means "take over the world."

Further, Clinton himself signed into law the Iraq Liberation Act which made "regime change" in Iraq the stated policy of the United States...that legislation passed the House by a margin of 360-38 and passed the Senate unanimously. Clinton himself said, "Iraq admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability, notably, 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production.... Over the past few months, as [the weapons inspectors] have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions by imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits.... It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons.... Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."



Yes...unfortunately people seem incapable of comprehending their stated agenda and instead just making things up about it.

You stated that their ideology is flawed...I am interested in what point specifically you are so opposed to?

I'm opposed to the idea that it is the duty of the United States to keep the peace all over the world. We have the most powerful military by far right now, and the most expensive by a wide margin. The PNAC didn't just want to maintain that advantage, or maintain a military strong enough to discourage attacks from the international bad guys, but to wage preemptive warfare. Their stated policy was and still is a significant expansion of the military.

We already knew the results of such wars from the Vietnam era. In Iraq, they got it closer to right by using a professional military, but they still launched us into a costly and unnecessary (IMO) war that has dragged on for a decade now, and still may not end well or soon.

Imposing a Pax Americana on the rest of the world is a bad idea. The real power in today's word is economic power, and military spending is a big drag on keeping that kind of power.

Not that it's the only factor, but it is a factor.
 
interesting, if I recall correctly you where backing the non democratic in Egypt..
Is that one of those ideals that only when it happens to be a good propaganda point to back up what you really want? Democracy is good..unless they vote the wrong guy or unless we like the strong man for our own interests?

I don't recall pretending that I was part of the PNAC, so I am not sure why your response is relavent.

Also spend more? we spend more then the 5 next nations combined in Military...we don't need to spend more. What we need is a way to have a more effective military without needing to use million dollar bombs to kill 5 guys with a week training on a jungle gym. Or to admit we can't afford the cost of being everyplace.

You missed the point, or are going to pretend those issue points were created yesterday. That is simply not the case.

Additionally, spending more doesn't mean anyone is going to break the bank, most arguments are for defense spending to fall around 4% of GDP. That is hardly a massive goal.
 
I'm opposed to the idea that it is the duty of the United States to keep the peace all over the world. We have the most powerful military by far right now, and the most expensive by a wide margin. The PNAC didn't just want to maintain that advantage, or maintain a military strong enough to discourage attacks from the international bad guys, but to wage preemptive warfare. Their stated policy was and still is a significant expansion of the military.

We already knew the results of such wars from the Vietnam era. In Iraq, they got it closer to right by using a professional military, but they still launched us into a costly and unnecessary (IMO) war that has dragged on for a decade now, and still may not end well or soon.

Imposing a Pax Americana on the rest of the world is a bad idea. The real power in today's word is economic power, and military spending is a big drag
on keeping that kind of power.

Not that it's the only factor, but it is a factor.

That is your interpretation of their goals...in which you have to again pretend that maintaining a modern, capable military somehow equates to PNAC launching preemptive wars around the world to impose pax Americana.
 
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That is your interpretation of their goals...in which you have to again pretend that maintaining a modern, capable military somehow equates to PNAC launching preemptive wars around the world to impose pax Americana.

Yes, it is my interpretation, which has since been supported by the invasion of Iraq.
 
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