An unpopular (in this forum) view of the GOP that needs to be faced

I am not that pleased about this "fix" either, as i don't think a two monts fix will do us any favor. I would rather the House reject this, and we really go over the cliff, then we can back track by President Obama given a new tax break to incomes below $250,000 a year, and we will have a sizeable cut for defense!

I wonder what Boehner and his sheep will do when they "vote" at 1:pm today. . . If they even vote on it!

You post an article lamenting the lack of leadership on the Republican side, and then express what became a fairly mainstream opinion of the Democrats that we should just go over the cliff rather than cede any ground because it will score political points. That sure makes sense. :confused:
 
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What's wrong with old German's Mark? Sure seems to be doing just fine as the Euro against the Dollars!

And, the point is that there is LOTS of money in the US. . .it is just all going to the top .5%. . . So, why ask those who live on poverty or close to poverty income to pay more taxes, and to get cuts on all the programs that keep them from starving like 3rd world countries citizens while the top .5% gets wealthier on THE WORK OF THE MIDDLE CLASS every year?

I would settle to ask those people not to pay more taxes, rather just some federal income taxes. Afterall, we are all in this together are we not? And this notion that the "rich" just sit around and get rich because of the work of the middle class is idiotic.

Successful business people take huge risks, and build a company up that then employs these middle class people -- who are free to not work there if they so choose.

Face it. . .it is the MIDDLE CLASS and the poor that make the economy work or fail! Because they don't have the luxury to send their "extra income " oversea. . .they have to spend it right here on NECESSITIES.

This is absurd. The middle class only have money because they are able to get a job and earn it. Who is it that creates jobs? When was the last time you were offered a job by a poor person?

Please go back and look at the "velocity of money," and see what $1 of tax break (or unemployment, or food stamps) do to the economy, compared to the same $1 given to the wealthy!

The result is the same. You only have a limited set of options with your $1, regardless of who you are. The problem is that additional government spending must first take that extra money out private sector economy, and then the government distributes it. I find the private sector is much more efficient at managing capital than the government.

OBVIOUSLY the policies of the Bush era didn't work for the economy, since it is clear that the $ LOST against most currencies during that period! Now the $ is a little higher than in 2006 to 2008 against the Euro. . .but it is a combination of NEW policies by the Obama government AND the weakness created in Europe by the fiasco of the 2008 crisis provoked by Bush's policies!

This statement is a clear indication that you have no idea how dollar valuations actually work. With the caveat that you don't want the dollar in the tank as that will ultimately increase interest rates, a more competively priced dollar is hardly a bad thing. A weaker dollar gives investors better value abroad, it boosts US exporters, multinational companies, and ultimtaely makes up for lagging consumer spending.

The dollar value is largely going to be tied with long term interest rates. With our long term rates in the gutter for the foreeable future, it makes investments in other currencies more attractive.

All those figures are readily available for all to see. . .but I am tired of posting them and never getting a reply that doesn't consist at "poopooing" it, and refusing to see the reality.

Obviously those countries who loan to the US are not as worried as the Republicans about our deficits, since they continue to loan money at a very preferential rate!

Who migh those countries be? The Wall Street Journal reported earlier this year that:
"The Federal Reserve is propping up the entire U.S. economy by buying 61 percent of the government debt issued by the Treasury Department, a trend that cannot last, Lawrence Goodman, a former Treasury official and current president of the Center for Financial Stability, writes in a Wall Street Journal opinion article published Wednesday. Last year the Fed purchased a stunning 61 percent of the total net Treasury issuance, up from negligible amounts prior to the 2008 financial crisis," Goodman writes. Goodman also warns that U.S. economy and markets are “at risk for a sharp correction” if conditions aren’t “normalized.” This not only creates the false appearance of limitless demand for U.S. debt but also blunts any sense of urgency to reduce supersized budget deficits."

And, by the way, there is a clause in the constitution that specifically addresses debts incured even BEFORE the establishment of the constitution and forced us to repay our debts. So, by trying to refuse to raise the debt limit, which would force us to default on our debts, the GOP would throw the Constitution (which seems to be their bible) to the trash.

Keep on worrying about your "right to bear arms" in the second amendment, but ignore the clause in the Constitution that obliged us to pay EVEN the debts we had PRIOR to the establishment of this constitution!

That makes a LOT of sense!

Article VI: All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This is supposed to be your argument for paying debts incurred today?
 
Failure to understand that austerity programs at a time when the economy is just recovering WILL push us in a depression is the biggest danger we face right now.

Why did you never thought about "austerity programs" and "spending cuts" when Bush was spending money on a worthless war and on tax cuts for the wealthy?

Austerity programs would probably have been helpful at the end of Clinton's presidency (because it was one of the few period of SURPLUS we have had throughout our history), and at the beginning of the Bush Presidency. Instead, Bush played "the big spender," and has burdened us with the bulk of the debt we face today. . .and still you insist in blaming President Obama who has been REDUCING the amount of deficit EVERY YEAR since 2010.

I've addressed this in other threads, and I suppose it bears mentioning again. The Clinton surplus was a projected surplus, that was based on widely absurd CBO assumptions -- I've posted them numerous times on here, and I'll post them again if you want.
 
How about this chart that shows WHERE the bulk of the Federal spending comes from . . .and that a large part of it comes from "commitments" made by GW BUSH. . .put that still needs to be met by President Obama.

12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

Here you are still throwing this chart around like it means anything -- I have addressed it in two (maybe three) previous threads and you have never replied...so here again is a brief response.

  • Washington set to tax $33 trillion and spend $46 trillion over the next decade, how does one determine which policies will "cause" this $13 trillion deficit?
  • Social Security ($9.2 trillion over 10 years)
  • Antipoverty programs ($7 trillion)
  • Other Medicare spending ($5.4 trillion)
  • Net interest on the debt ($6.1 trillion)
  • Non-defense discretionary spending ($7.5 trillion)
Your solution is clearly pick every program you don't like -- and then say "that is the cause of the deficit." That does not make any sense.
 
Obama is addressing the spending problem

Really??? What proposal of his did I miss that would truly address our spending problem?

and will do a lot more in the next two months, if the GOP lets him come up with FAIR reductions, that affects the areas that can be cut without creating a bigger problem for the poor and middle class and doesn't slow down the economy.

What the hell is a "fair" reduction?
 
You post an article lamenting the lack of leadership on the Republican side, and then express what became a fairly mainstream opinion of the Democrats that we should just go over the cliff rather than cede any ground because it will score political points. That sure makes sense. :confused:

Yes it does make sense. I'm happy we finally got a compromise, but I much preferred to go over the cliff than to give in anymore! I think all Democrats and most reasonable people are sick of the GOP black mail! It worked in 2010, it won't work again.

And. . .is there something wrong about posting an article written by a bi-partisan Princeton Professor?

Was I in anyway rude or insulting in doing so? It seems that, in this forum, if one posts something that doesn't fall directly within the paradigm of the Right wing (I am even tempted to say EXTREME Right wing. . .but I choose not to, because a couple of people here are more "middle of the road" and do have a sense of fairness), it is automatically considered as a LIE, STUPID, and AN ATTACK!

Give me a break!

By the way, welcome back. . .seems you have been gone for awhile. . .and the first thing you find to do is. . .criticize Openmind, as usual!

Oh well, lucky I have broad shoulders!
 
:)
Yes it does make sense. I'm happy we finally got a compromise, but I much preferred to go over the cliff than to give in anymore! I think all Democrats and most reasonable people are sick of the GOP black mail! It worked in 2010, it won't work again.

Give in on what?

And. . .is there something wrong about posting an article written by a bi-partisan Princeton Professor?

No -- I didn't say there was.

Was I in anyway rude or insulting in doing so? It seems that, in this forum, if one posts something that doesn't fall directly within the paradigm of the Right wing (I am even tempted to say EXTREME Right wing. . .but I choose not to, because a couple of people here are more "middle of the road" and do have a sense of fairness), it is automatically considered as a LIE, STUPID, and AN ATTACK!

Give me a break!

I didn't find anything about your post rude of insulting....

By the way, welcome back. . .seems you have been gone for awhile. . .and the first thing you find to do is. . .criticize Openmind, as usual!

Thanks, glad to be back. I was in Southern Spain for the holidays.

Oh well, lucky I have broad shoulders!

:)
 
It seem "bipartisan" means do whatever your ideological opposition wants.

Dr Princeton is not even attepting to be bipartisan (or more correctly even handed or objective).

That being said Princeton does bring truth to the NJ slogan Garden State. pretty little town.
 
Really??? What proposal of his did I miss that would truly address our spending problem?



What the hell is a "fair" reduction?


Didn't I post a link that showed the spending cuts he had already proposed as well as the ones the GOP had proposed?

And, by the way, does everyone here have miss the fact that this "fix" was only a compromise to allow the tax cut on the first $400,000 of income FOR EVERYONE to continue without interruption, but that EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT is determined to have a compromise about spending cut by the dead line for this fix, in February?

Why is it that people here seem to have filters that keep them from understanding or remembering the POSITIVE parts, and ONLY remember the negative parts?

You did read what this fix did, didn't you? Did the GOP have any spending cut as a condition to avoiding going over the cliff? I don't think so! If they did, we would just have gone over the cliff, and then ALL the GOP's bargaining power would have disappeared, and their "approval rating" would have gone down even more!

FAIR spending cuts, in my opinion, would be to examine where the WASTE and double dipping (programs that accomplish the same purpose) exist in both social AND corporate welfare. Then cut or TRIM Corporate welfare programs to the bone. If it is still needed to obtain significant deficit reductions (over a 10 years period), then look at how to TRIM some programs such as medicare or medicare part D. . .but that would have to be done, once again, by cutting the "higher income" retiree medicare rather than retirees who live close to the poverty line.

Now. . .that would be fair!
 
Didn't I post a link that showed the spending cuts he had already proposed as well as the ones the GOP had proposed?

You did, and I posted a visual of the proposed "cuts". here it is again:

spending-pie-and-cuts.png



only to be assured that any real cuts "austerity" was the term applied to an actual fiscally conservative budget, would lead to a worse recession.

So, why is anyone, Republican or Democrat, talking about spending cuts? No one is serious about that.

And, by the way, does everyone here have miss the fact that this "fix" was only a compromise to allow the tax cut on the first $400,000 of income FOR EVERYONE to continue without interruption, but that EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT is determined to have a compromise about spending cut by the dead line for this fix, in February?

and the odds of any significant cuts in spending are, what again?
Neither side is proposing real cuts. They're just playing games with numbers.

Why is it that people here seem to have filters that keep them from understanding or remembering the POSITIVE parts, and ONLY remember the negative parts?

You did read what this fix did, didn't you? Did the GOP have any spending cut as a condition to avoiding going over the cliff? I don't think so! If they did, we would just have gone over the cliff, and then ALL the GOP's bargaining power would have disappeared, and their "approval rating" would have gone down even more!

FAIR spending cuts, in my opinion, would be to examine where the WASTE and double dipping (programs that accomplish the same purpose) exist in both social AND corporate welfare. Then cut or TRIM Corporate welfare programs to the bone. If it is still needed to obtain significant deficit reductions (over a 10 years period), then look at how to TRIM some programs such as medicare or medicare part D. . .but that would have to be done, once again, by cutting the "higher income" retiree medicare rather than retirees who live close to the poverty line.

Now. . .that would be fair!

Trim waste and double dipping, now that's a good idea, as is trimming corporate welfare.
How much do you think that would really save?
Could we really trim ten trillion over ten years, leaving only the level of deficit spending prevalent before the recession?
 
You did, and I posted a visual of the proposed "cuts". here it is again:

spending-pie-and-cuts.png



only to be assured that any real cuts "austerity" was the term applied to an actual fiscally conservative budget, would lead to a worse recession.

So, why is anyone, Republican or Democrat, talking about spending cuts? No one is serious about that.



and the odds of any significant cuts in spending are, what again?
Neither side is proposing real cuts. They're just playing games with numbers.



Trim waste and double dipping, now that's a good idea, as is trimming corporate welfare.
How much do you think that would really save?
Could we really trim ten trillion over ten years, leaving only the level of deficit spending prevalent before the recession?


Who cares? The problem is not so much the deficit. . .it is the continuous INCREASE in deficit!
And, by the way, if the deficit went back down to the 2008 level, . . . it would be lower than the 2008 level, due to inflation!

And, yes, if we can get the economy back to a good level of growth, if we cut down tax loopholes for income over $450,000, or limit the deduction allowed to $50,000 a year, if we cut the waste, and if we trim (or cut in some cases) corporate welfare, and if we CUT defense by at least 20% we can trim the deficit down significantly!

Why. . .Do you think that the only way to take care of the deficit is to cut medicare and medicaid, and to privatize social security?

Do you have a better plan? Apparently none of your friend in the GOP did. . .in fact, do you realize that both Boehner AND Ryan voted YEA last night?

Why. . .
 
Didn't I post a link that showed the spending cuts he had already proposed as well as the ones the GOP had proposed?

I don't believe I saw such a breakdown in any detail from you.

And, by the way, does everyone here have miss the fact that this "fix" was only a compromise to allow the tax cut on the first $400,000 of income FOR EVERYONE to continue without interruption, but that EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT is determined to have a compromise about spending cut by the dead line for this fix, in February?

Wasn't that what we heard all year long before all this?

Why is it that people here seem to have filters that keep them from understanding or remembering the POSITIVE parts, and ONLY remember the negative parts?

There are not many positive parts here.

You did read what this fix did, didn't you? Did the GOP have any spending cut as a condition to avoiding going over the cliff? I don't think so! If they did, we would just have gone over the cliff, and then ALL the GOP's bargaining power would have disappeared, and their "approval rating" would have gone down even more!

Boehner (and other Republicans) did push for spending cuts to be included in this deal, but were soundly rejected by Democrats on the issue. I would predict the fight over spending cuts in two months in regards to this same issue and then the debt ceiling at the same time will be far more brutal.

FAIR spending cuts, in my opinion, would be to examine where the WASTE and double dipping (programs that accomplish the same purpose) exist in both social AND corporate welfare. Then cut or TRIM Corporate welfare programs to the bone. If it is still needed to obtain significant deficit reductions (over a 10 years period), then look at how to TRIM some programs such as medicare or medicare part D. . .but that would have to be done, once again, by cutting the "higher income" retiree medicare rather than retirees who live close to the poverty line.

Now. . .that would be fair!

There is simply not enough waste to accomplish this -- there is plenty of waste however -- I have posted several GAO reports on that matter on this board -- but no one is Congress (in either party) is taking that seriously.
 
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You did, and I posted a visual of the proposed "cuts". here it is again:

spending-pie-and-cuts.png



only to be assured that any real cuts "austerity" was the term applied to an actual fiscally conservative budget, would lead to a worse recession.

So, why is anyone, Republican or Democrat, talking about spending cuts? No one is serious about that.



and the odds of any significant cuts in spending are, what again?
Neither side is proposing real cuts. They're just playing games with numbers.



Trim waste and double dipping, now that's a good idea, as is trimming corporate welfare.
How much do you think that would really save?
Could we really trim ten trillion over ten years, leaving only the level of deficit spending prevalent before the recession?


depends on how you define waste.
 
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