Anti-Gay Concentration Camps

[TruthSeeker]

I don't consider the attacks on 9-11 to be terrorism, I consider it an act of war by a group of people who had already declared jihad and had stated publicly that they wanted to destroy the "Great Satan".

I see the point you're making about the effect certain actions may have on entire groups of people, and given the line of reasoning you're pursuing I agree with your example of anti-terrorism laws. I just think it's wrong to single out an individual and say that his crime is worse than other similar crimes just because the victim looks or acts a certain way. I also don't think that we should have the anti-terrorism laws because I don't think they enhance our ability to deal with terrorists, although they certainly enhance the ability of Uncle Sam to keep tabs on me.

I agree with you on 9/11 being an act of war.

But, your argument against the Patriot Act (anti-terrorism laws) is the same old argument that all people use who are against it.

I always have the same response to those people. If you are afraid that "Uncle Sam" is keeping tabs on you, then Uncle Sam must have a good reason to. Otherwise, he is wasting a lot of money and resources.

If you are NOT a terrorist or an "enemy combatant", then you have nothing to fear as far as having your phone tapped or your house searched, right?

For any "average Joe" to believe that Uncle Sam is interested in what they do on a daily basis, is not only alarmist and paranoid, but it's also arrogant.

 

[PLC1]

This is something the mainstream media has refused to report enough on. A company in Utah named "Teen Escort Services" is regularly contracted to kidnap LGBT teenagers in the middle of the night, deport them to a concentration camp in a country that doesn't extradite to the US, and torture them. The goal of these concentration camps is to beat "the gay" out of them. It's legal because homophobic parents sign over legal documents allowing them to go to these camps to "cure" their homosexuality. They are not allowed to leave these camps and are regularly tortured, they are also banned from speaking about the outside world. According to some testimonies, the teenagers tried to rebel against their Nazi overseers, but were gunned down with rubber bullets.

Please don't blame the entire United States for these crimes against humanity. In Utah (and Jamaica, which is where one of the concentration camps is located) teenagers lack the same basic human rights as adults and Utah is known for being predominantly Mormon. For those of you who don't know, Mormonism is a radical far right wing sect of Christianity that often does outrageous things and promotes incest, inbreeding, and now apparently the kidnapping & false imprisonment of minors. This is legal because the companies involved "donated" large sums of money to many politicians and the leader of one of the concentration camp operating companies, World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools, is a close personal friend of many politicians, including Mitt Romney.

Here's one victim's story: http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/hk0xy/a_gay_teen_describes_her_experience_at_a_utah/

Original Discussion on Facepunch: http://www.facepunch.com/threads/10...erience-at-a-Utah-WWASP-brainwashing-facility

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Association_of_Specialty_Programs_and_Schools

The story lacks credibility, to say the least.

For one thing the characterization of Mormonism as "a radical far right wing sect of Christianity that often does outrageous things and promotes incest, inbreeding" is way off of the mark.

For another, the story told by the gay teen reads like a creative writing project.

Here is the Cross Creek Website, if anyone is interested in the other side of the story.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You missed my point. The way children are treated by their parents has nothing to do with politics.

Children get abused all the time, by parents, by other relatives, and by other adults.

People get "savagely beaten" for a variety of reasons besides being gay. The difference is I don't see those people being supported with "protest marches".

Women are raped for a variety of reasons. Men get raped, too. So where is your righteous indignation for all of those people?Pick and choosing who is more or less deserving of being abused, based on their sexual preferences or their age, is ridiculous.

This is a false argument in that one cannot address all the ills of the world in one post. We were discussing the treatement of gay and transgendered kids. If you wish me to address the other ills of the world then you should start a thread on them.

 

[Rick]

I don't consider the attacks on 9-11 to be terrorism, I consider it an act of war

Exactly - like calling the WWII nazi invasion of poland "an act of blitzkrieg".

 

[Centrehalf]

I agree with you on 9/11 being an act of war.

But, your argument against the Patriot Act (anti-terrorism laws) is the same old argument that all people use who are against it.

I always have the same response to those people. If you are afraid that "Uncle Sam" is keeping tabs on you, then Uncle Sam must have a good reason to. Otherwise, he is wasting a lot of money and resources.

If you are NOT a terrorist or an "enemy combatant", then you have nothing to fear as far as having your phone tapped or your house searched, right?

For any "average Joe" to believe that Uncle Sam is interested in what they do on a daily basis, is not only alarmist and paranoid, but it's also arrogant.

Let me clarify my position. Most of Patriot I and Patriot II deal with administrative matters that will never affect the average joe. I have a problem with two things.

One. The ability of the President to declare anyone an enemy combatant, for any reason. The potential for abuse there is too great to be allowed to stand.

Two. The expansion of the role of the FISA court. It used to be that FISA courts only dealt with defendants who had violated the USSIDS or similar directives, it was strictly about cases that couldn't be heard in normal courts because of security agreements and information that couldn't be heard by a bunch of civilians. Now, their role has been expanded, they issue things as simple as wiretap authorizations which are requested because of the results of data mining dragnets. There's no reason for the FISA court to be involved in that, putting wiretap requests based on information gained from surveillance of American citizens who have done nothing wrong in that court is literally privilege. Maybe those abilities haven't been abused yet, but how long do you think it'll be before it will be abused?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I always have the same response to those people. If you are afraid that "Uncle Sam" is keeping tabs on you, then Uncle Sam must have a good reason to. Otherwise, he is wasting a lot of money and resources.

Truthsneaker, you have far more faith in the US government than I do if you truly believe that Uncle Sam has a good reason for keeping tabs on more and more American citizens. Give them the power and the power will be abused.

 

[PLC1]

Truthsneaker, you have far more faith in the US government than I do if you truly believe that Uncle Sam has a good reason for keeping tabs on more and more American citizens. Give them the power and the power will be abused.

Absolutely correct.

How can anyone consider themselves to be a 'conservative", while espousing a patently pro powerful government and anti individual liberty position? It makes no sense to me at all.

But then, I've always found the "liberal" vs "conservative' philosophy to be fatally flawed anyway.

 

[TruthSeeker]

This is a false argument in that one cannot address all the ills of the world in one post. We were discussing the treatement of gay and transgendered kids. If you wish me to address the other ills of the world then you should start a thread on them.

If we were discussing JUST the treatment of gay and transgendered kids, then why did you feel the need to inject partisan political clap-trap into the mix?

Unless, of course, this statement is not yours, and some "imposter" using your name wrote the following:
"Why wouldn't the conservative media be all over this as well? Do you feel that this is the proper way to deal with gay and transgendered children? In your opinion would conservatives in general see this as a positive way to handle our children?"

 

[TruthSeeker]

Truthsneaker, you have far more faith in the US government than I do if you truly believe that Uncle Sam has a good reason for keeping tabs on more and more American citizens. Give them the power and the power will be abused.

So I'm sure you can provide links to prove your statement that "Uncle Sam is keeping tabs on more and more American citizens", right?

Or is this just another one of your sweeping generalizations that have no basis whatsoever in fact.

 

[Centrehalf]

If you are NOT a terrorist or an "enemy combatant", then you have nothing to fear as far as having your phone tapped or your house searched, right?

I interpret this as "Prove your innocence".

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

If we were discussing JUST the treatment of gay and transgendered kids, then why did you feel the need to inject partisan political clap-trap into the mix?

Unless, of course, this statement is not yours, and some "imposter" using your name wrote the following:
"Why wouldn't the conservative media be all over this as well? Do you feel that this is the proper way to deal with gay and transgendered children? In your opinion would conservatives in general see this as a positive way to handle our children?"

I only made reference to the conservative media since you made reference to the lib media, from my perspective IF this was actually happening then it should be the subject of all media.

I went on to ask you about YOUR opinion on the subject since you are a notorious conservative on this site.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

So I'm sure you can provide links to prove your statement that "Uncle Sam is keeping tabs on more and more American citizens", right?

Or is this just another one of your sweeping generalizations that have no basis whatsoever in fact.

I keep reading about the warrantless wire taps and the government using Facebook to gather info and I have to wonder. Are you old enough to remember J. Edgar Hoover and all the secret files he collected?

I believe you are the only conservative I've corresponded with who is okay with bigger and more intrusive government.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Let me clarify my position. Most of Patriot I and Patriot II deal with administrative matters that will never affect the average joe. I have a problem with two things.

One. The ability of the President to declare anyone an enemy combatant, for any reason. The potential for abuse there is too great to be allowed to stand.

Two.......There's no reason for the FISA court to be involved in that, putting wiretap requests based on information gained from surveillance of American citizens who have done nothing wrong in that court is literally privilege. Maybe those abilities haven't been abused yet, but how long do you think it'll be before it will be abused?

Nope, I'm not going to give you a pass on these comments.

You are saying that because of the "potential" of abuse, these two parts of the Patriot Act need to be eliminated?

Doesn't every law or mandate on the books present the "potential" for abuse?

Using your criteria, our society should be living in anarchy.

I just don't see why ANYBODY in this forum believes they are "important" enough to have the federal government wire-tapping their phones, searching their home, and declaring them to be an "enemy combatant".

In the eyes of FISA and the POTUS, we're all nobodys. However, if anybody in here is involved in seditious or treasonous activities, or is a foreign terrorist or operative, then I hope that FISA is doing their job!

Why do some people, mostly on the left, strive for the unattainable ideas of "perfection" and "nirvana"?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Why do some people, mostly on the left, strive for the unattainable ideas of "perfection" and "nirvana"?

Why? What should we strive for? Mediocrity?

 

[Rick]

I keep reading about the warrantless wire taps and the government using Facebook to gather info and I have to wonder. Are you old enough to remember J. Edgar Hoover and all the secret files he collected?

I believe you are the only conservative I've corresponded with who is okay with bigger and more intrusive government.

The above is a red herring. Hoover collected info on political enemies, and there was no FISA court to constrain him. There is no evidence that the Patriot Act has ever been misused - if you have any evidence, present it. Conservatives recognize that the fundamental duty of government is to protect its citizens, and in wartime it has to take a more active role in gathering intelligence, and always has. Washington stopped and searched suspected couriers without a warrant. Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, and eavesdropped on telegraph traffic. Franklin Roosevelt monitored ALL electronic communication into and out of the country during WWII.