Clinton attacks Bush's "irresponsibility" on Iraq

PLC1

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That's the problem. The people of Myanmar are not in control of their own destinies and all the sanctions we've come up with have failed to unseat the military dictatorship. If it were possible for them to rise up against their oppressors they'd have done it by now. I'm not talking about shoving democracy down the throats of people who don't want it, I'm talking about doing what we can to support democracy in countries that have demonstrated a desire for freedom but are oppressed by horrible, totalitarian regimes.

Trying to help the people of Myanmar is a noble ideal, but is it one that the US government can really accomplish? Getting rid of Saddam Hussain and freeing the people of Iraq was a noble ideal also, but look how that project is turning out.
 
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vyo476

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Trying to help the people of Myanmar is a noble ideal, but is it one that the US government can really accomplish? Getting rid of Saddam Hussain and freeing the people of Iraq was a noble ideal also, but look how that project is turning out.

Personally I think Myanmar would be a lot different. For one thing there is no privileged minority that currently benefits from the regime - it is only the regime itself that benefits from its continued power. Get rid of the regime - and the rest of the country has no problem with the idea of a new government. It wasn't like that in Iraq, as the Sunnis suddenly found themselves equal to the Shi'ites and Kurds - which is largely how the insurgency there started.

That's just a personal opinion though.
 

PLC1

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Personally I think Myanmar would be a lot different. For one thing there is no privileged minority that currently benefits from the regime - it is only the regime itself that benefits from its continued power. Get rid of the regime - and the rest of the country has no problem with the idea of a new government. It wasn't like that in Iraq, as the Sunnis suddenly found themselves equal to the Shi'ites and Kurds - which is largely how the insurgency there started.

That's just a personal opinion though.

Maybe the neocons would have been more successful in Myanmar than they were in Iraq. Maybe such a success would have made their agenda a little more credible. We'll never know.
 

vyo476

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Maybe the neocons would have been more successful in Myanmar than they were in Iraq. Maybe such a success would have made their agenda a little more credible. We'll never know.

Thing is, the neocons would never help Myanmar. What's in it for them? Nothing.
 

PLC1

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Thing is, the neocons would never help Myanmar. What's in it for them? Nothing.

Wouldn't it prove their ideas viable if they could replace a tyrannical government and free the people of Myanmar? If it would have been easier than liberating Iraq, it might have been a place to start. It's always better to do the easiest tasks first, just to improve your confidence and credibility by starting with some successes.

Now, of course, had Myanmar become the disaster that Iraq has, they wouldn't have gained anything from that either.
 

Dave

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3. Does the US government possess the wisdom, the patience, and the power to replace tyrannical governments around the world?

Its the American people that don't possess the patience, and that is sometimes reflected in the government they choose. Nation-building in Iraq can work, but not if the American people won't let it. When we hear people saying that the recent troop surge isn't working when it hasn't even been fully implemented yet, that just shows that Americans are not going to give it a chance. This administration has the patience to stay with the war and see it through, but I can't say the same for he country.
 

ArmChair General

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Its the American people that don't possess the patience, and that is sometimes reflected in the government they choose. Nation-building in Iraq can work, but not if the American people won't let it. When we hear people saying that the recent troop surge isn't working when it hasn't even been fully implemented yet, that just shows that Americans are not going to give it a chance. This administration has the patience to stay with the war and see it through, but I can't say the same for he country.

The Surge. Jeez, just that title, "the Surge" - what Stan Lee fan thought of that? The DoD is addicted to these corny titles. Can't just say we're going to increase troop numbers in Baghdad. No, it's "The Surge"! Like the name you'd give some lame X-Man added for ethnic balance, maybe a gay Samoan cripple who can turn himself into a tidal wave when danger threatens. One minute he's a mild-mannered Green-Zone accountant making $800 a day, and then -- Kaboom! he becomes a Tsunami of freedom, washing the scum off the "Arab Street."

If only. Unfortunately, this isn't a surge, just a reinforcement, and a pretty small one. And if you have to ask whether it'll work, you don't understand guerrilla war. Of course it won't work. Classic guerrilla doctrine - Hell, plain common sense - says when the occupier floods the city with troops, the guerrilla lays low. Which the Iraqis are doing. And yet people are so stupid they're already crowing that "incidents are down" since the Surge.

Well, duh. That's the idea: avoid battle, watch the Arabic-subtitled Dynasty reruns, let the clueless foreigners zoom up and down the alleys. Meanwhile, every soccer-playing kid in the street is memorizing patrol times and tipping his uncle off about the vulnerable small outposts we're now occupying as part of our meet-&-greet policy.

There's no point watching this like a Dow Jones graph, because any sane primate knows where it's going. Bush drove our car into a tree, and it's not going to un-total itself. and feeding more troops in, putting them on show to be blasted by IEDs - that's not warlike, that's...see, I can't even come up with a word for what these neocons are. They're not warmongers, that's for sure, because they'll never use our nukes. They're tinkerers, that's what it is - home improvement assholes who hit the sewer main with their first dig, then try to pretend the **** isn't filling up the basement. They won't nuke or leave, just hope their salaries rise faster than the sewage level.
 
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Coyote

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The Surge. Jeez, just that title, "the Surge" - They're tinkerers, that's what it is - home improvement assholes who hit the sewer main with their first dig, then try to pretend the **** isn't filling up the basement. They won't nuke or leave, just hope their salaries rise faster than the sewage level.

:D lmao - great imagery...unfortunately, apt.
 
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