Debt cealing issue solved..no republicans needed?

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

The 14th Amendment, section 4.

Just outlaw the debt ceiling...and move on?

Such an argument is absurd...and here is why.

The 14th Amendment states:
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

So what does this mean...does it mean that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional? I would say not in any way....the amendment itself clearly states that such debt must be authorized by law. The Constitution is fairly clear on who is able to borrow money on the credit of the United States (Article 1 Section 8), and such power does not rest with the Executive.

Additionally, Article 1 Section 7 adds more clarity to the point by stating "All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives." Again, meaning that the Executive simply cannot decide how much money it spends...that power clearly lies with Congress.

So, it seems fair to argue that debt, that has been authorized by law, (ie Congress) will not be questioned. It seems a stretch to me to argue that if Congress refuses (at the moment) to authorize more debt, that the Executive somehow has the power to do it for them, especially given the language is Article 1 Section 8.

Additionally, failure to raise the debt ceiling does not automatically equate to default. The Treasury Secretary is able to designate revenue first for debt payments (even if no debt limit raise occurs), and would be able to make payments, resulting in cuts in other places.

It is the ultimate false choice to argue that either Congress must cave and raise the debt limit, or the president must act dictatorially, as the Constitution allegedly authorizes him to do...but that is the argument we keep hearing. Sad really.
 
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Such an argument is absurd...and here is why.

The 14th Amendment states:
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

So what does this mean...does it mean that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional? I would say not in any way....the amendment itself clearly states that such debt must be authorized by law. The Constitution is fairly clear on who is able to borrow money on the credit of the United States (Article 1 Section 8), and such power does not rest with the Executive.

Additionally, Article 1 Section 7 adds more clarity to the point by stating "All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives." Again, meaning that the Executive simply cannot decide how much money it spends...that power clearly lies with Congress.

So, it seems fair to argue that debt, that has been authorized by law, (ie Congress) will not be questioned. It seems a stretch to me to argue that if Congress refuses (at the moment) to authorize more debt, that the Executive somehow has the power to do it for them, especially given the language is Article 1 Section 8.

Additionally, failure to raise the debt ceiling does not automatically equate to default. The Treasury Secretary is able to designate revenue first for debt payments (even if no debt limit raise occurs), and would be able to make payments, resulting in cuts in other places.

It is the ultimate false choice to argue that either Congress must cave and raise the debt limit, or the president must act dictatorially, as the Constitution allegedly authorizes him to do...but that is the argument we keep hearing. Sad really.

That is the argument...since long ago...Regan made it. And how long do you think we can basically try to not pay our bills by paying one credit card with the other and hoping it does not catch up?

And as for the debt...would not most legal spending by the Government..be backed by the legal backing to spend it? Even specifically points out Pensions..so if congress did have the money to fund pensions, would not the President be forced to pay for them somehow...as they can not be questioned.

Garrett Epps, a legal professor for U of Oregon , and Bruce Bartlett who has worked for Ron Paul, Domestic policy adviser for Regan, and treasury offical under HW Bush...Hardly a Obama loving pro Liberal list there saying it...making me think there could be some validity to this case...as for if it would stand up to the supreme court. who knows. this is a very political SC in my view so it could be a coin flip...

I have not been able to look it over to much, to busy the last week...but its a interesting twist to the debate...And sad how it took 2 pages for someone who did not agree...to actually list a reason why...

As for the we can just keep paying bills past the debt ceiling.. how many days after we pass...will be bounce checks? If you don't know this ...then do you really want to play the game and hope your right and risk the credit rating of the US and the world econ on it?

his country now possesses the strongest credit in the world. The full consequences of a default -- or even the serious prospect of default -- by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The Nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass this legislation before the Congress adjourns. Regan.

"A February 2011 report by nonpartisan Congressional Research Service -- which Geithner cited -- found that "if the debt limit is reached and Treasury is no longer able to issue federal debt ... the federal government would have to eliminate all spending on discretionary programs, cut nearly 70% of outlays for mandatory programs, increase revenue collection by nearly two-thirds, or take some combination of those actions in the second half of FY 2011 (April through September 30, 2011) in order to avoid increasing the debt limit."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/geithner-warns-johnson-on_n_886929.html

what scares me most is that I think republicans are going to play chicken and not move and drive the car off the cliff...because they have fooled them self into thinking its not really that bad if they do..because they don't want to face the politics of having to raise taxes or move a inch on what there position is...Better to destroy the nations credit, the budge a inch.
 
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

The 14th Amendment, section 4.

Just outlaw the debt ceiling...and move on?

Imposing a limitation on the amount of debt to be issued is perfectly legitimate and does not qualify as renouncing the validity of the public debt.

At any rate, tax revenues are over $2 trillion annually, more than sufficient to pay the interest on our existing debt. If we "default" (on real debt, not on intragovernmental holdings) it will solely be because Tim Geithner elected to do so strategically.
 
That is the argument...since long ago...Regan made it.

I don't think Reagan made the argument that the Executive could simply go around Congress in this regard. He just made the argument (as you cite below) that failure to raise the debt ceiling at that time would be an unwise move.

And how long do you think we can basically try to not pay our bills by paying one credit card with the other and hoping it does not catch up?

We are $14 trillion dollars in debt...what exactly do you think we have been doing?

And as for the debt...would not most legal spending by the Government..be backed by the legal backing to spend it? Even specifically points out Pensions..so if congress did have the money to fund pensions, would not the President be forced to pay for them somehow...as they can not be questioned.

The Executive clearly has no authority to raise or borrow funds, so I don't see how they can do that. Congress sets spending limits, not the Executive.

Garrett Epps, a legal professor for U of Oregon , and Bruce Bartlett who has worked for Ron Paul, Domestic policy adviser for Regan, and treasury offical under HW Bush...Hardly a Obama loving pro Liberal list there saying it...making me think there could be some validity to this case...as for if it would stand up to the supreme court. who knows. this is a very political SC in my view so it could be a coin flip...

I don't think it would fly, but I am not sure such a thing has been tested before to find a clear legal precedence.

I have not been able to look it over to much, to busy the last week...but its a interesting twist to the debate...And sad how it took 2 pages for someone who did not agree...to actually list a reason why...

As for the we can just keep paying bills past the debt ceiling.. how many days after we pass...will be bounce checks? If you don't know this ...then do you really want to play the game and hope your right and risk the credit rating of the US and the world econ on it?

Our credit will be destroyed anyway if we don't curtail spending...we cannot spend out way to prosperity.

his country now possesses the strongest credit in the world. The full consequences of a default -- or even the serious prospect of default -- by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The Nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass this legislation before the Congress adjourns. Regan.

He did indeed make such an argument.

"A February 2011 report by nonpartisan Congressional Research Service -- which Geithner cited -- found that "if the debt limit is reached and Treasury is no longer able to issue federal debt ... the federal government would have to eliminate all spending on discretionary programs, cut nearly 70% of outlays for mandatory programs, increase revenue collection by nearly two-thirds, or take some combination of those actions in the second half of FY 2011 (April through September 30, 2011) in order to avoid increasing the debt limit."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/geithner-warns-johnson-on_n_886929.html

what scares me most is that I think republicans are going to play chicken and not move and drive the car off the cliff...because they have fooled them self into thinking its not really that bad if they do..because they don't want to face the politics of having to raise taxes or move a inch on what there position is...Better to destroy the nations credit, the budge a inch.

The ceiling will be raised, but Democrats are going to have to agree to meaningful cuts. Not simply cut spending by the amount the debt ceiling is increased. Real cuts need to happen, and no one seems to want to seriously address this issue..preferring instead to live in the realm of talking points.
 
Just another example of the left using Ronald Reagan as a pawn to try to legitimize their ridiculous philosophies.

The left never has any links, mind you, because they don't exist, or they only exist on illegitimate far left wing websites. All the left has are false premises and faux facts.
 
Isn't frigging amazing that obozo can get up and say that we are threatening the country if we don't hike the $14 trillion debt ceiling even HIGHER?
 
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

The 14th Amendment, section 4.

Just outlaw the debt ceiling...and move on?


The problem is, even if the debt limit is not raised the qualified debts can be paid with current revenues. Its all the impulse buying that suffers.
 
I don't think Reagan made the argument that the Executive could simply go around Congress in this regard. He just made the argument (as you cite below) that failure to raise the debt ceiling at that time would be an unwise move.



We are $14 trillion dollars in debt...what exactly do you think we have been doing?



The Executive clearly has no authority to raise or borrow funds, so I don't see how they can do that. Congress sets spending limits, not the Executive.



I don't think it would fly, but I am not sure such a thing has been tested before to find a clear legal precedence.



Our credit will be destroyed anyway if we don't curtail spending...we cannot spend out way to prosperity.



He did indeed make such an argument.



The ceiling will be raised, but Democrats are going to have to agree to meaningful cuts. Not simply cut spending by the amount the debt ceiling is increased. Real cuts need to happen, and no one seems to want to seriously address this issue..preferring instead to live in the realm of talking points.

The dems I think are open to cuts they don't like...Maybe not as big as Republicans want...but republicans need to grow up and start listing to actually raising some money as well...I mean at least lets start with closing loopholes and tax breaks for Oil....but even that they say is off the table...I don't expect the deal to be everything i would want....I just expect that it should not be only what the Republicans want.
 
The problem is, even if the debt limit is not raised the qualified debts can be paid with current revenues. Its all the impulse buying that suffers.

it could...just get congress to agree where to cut the spending from...wait thats the whole point right now is it not?

You cant cut taxes, increase spending, and then pretend like the debt ceiling is just a fake number with no meaning if you don't address it. Its just 2 bad the Republican party never seem to care about this as a whole until someone else had the white house ( not all , some cared for 8 years, but they where the very small majority of republicans) the rest said...War , put it on the card...2nd war...put it on the card....tax reduction...put it on the card...Prescription drug plan...credit card...Tarp..Credit card...more tax cuts? Credit card....Raise debt ceiling? sure when ever needed.....Dem in office? WOW look at the debt someone needs to do something!
 
it could...just get congress to agree where to cut the spending from...wait thats the whole point right now is it not?

You cant cut taxes, increase spending, and then pretend like the debt ceiling is just a fake number with no meaning if you don't address it. Its just 2 bad the Republican party never seem to care about this as a whole until someone else had the white house ( not all , some cared for 8 years, but they where the very small majority of republicans) the rest said...War , put it on the card...2nd war...put it on the card....tax reduction...put it on the card...Prescription drug plan...credit card...Tarp..Credit card...more tax cuts? Credit card....Raise debt ceiling? sure when ever needed.....Dem in office? WOW look at the debt someone needs to do something!


Can't defend GOP spending as its been terrible but Obama spending has forced ratings agencies and the international community to warn us in n uncertain terms that it has to stop. And now. Our ability to live beyond our means is finite and we're there.

Its easy to point at this loophole or that one and gin up populist outrage but if you examine them you see that there is a reason for them, typically outrageous regulation or taxation. This is exactly the case with oil. Kill that off and gas goes up. Now I suspect you are OK with expensive gas but it spurs inflation at the supposed benefit of Mumma Earth.

Virtually nobody in DC is as serious about this issue but the GOP is marginally closer. And the wealth envy won't work, you can change the taxes on those horrid rich people all you want and you won't get a dime more out of them as their lawyers and accountants are just too smart.

No dad to run to to bail us out. Just hard choices, not unlike Greece.
 
The dems I think are open to cuts they don't like...Maybe not as big as Republicans want...but republicans need to grow up and start listing to actually raising some money as well...I mean at least lets start with closing loopholes and tax breaks for Oil....but even that they say is off the table...I don't expect the deal to be everything i would want....I just expect that it should not be only what the Republicans want.

Where is the their proposal? It is hard to look at a group credibly when they can't even propose a real solution to the issue.

So far, it seems all we hear is "raise taxes on the rich" and that will somehow solve the budget crisis, but it simply wont.

The Washington Times reported that, "Estimates by nonpartisan groups such as the Urban Institute and Tax Policy Center show that without any serious efforts to cut spending, tax rates on the wealthiest people earning $200,000 or more — the group targeted by President Obama — would have to rise to prohibitive levels of between 77 percent and 91 percent just to bring the yearly budget deficit down to manageable levels of around 2 percent to 3 percent of economic output. "

Read that carefully....massive tax increases on those groups, won't even balance the budget...let alone start to address the debt issue. And of course this ignores the whole economic impact of such a measure.

Show me real solutions from the Democrats, and I will take them seriously.
 
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Why did the Democrats lose the election last year? Their spending,taxes and heathcare is what cost them their jobs. Democrats still havent learned their lesson. Democrats are like convicts. Prison is suppose to teach criminals not to commit the crimes again. When you lose your job youre supposed to learn from it. Democrats are like repeated felons who get paroled and go out and do the very same crime again. So if they define the voters again they will lose more seats it might be very differcult to regain majority again unless the republicans **** up again like George Bush ****ed things up!
 
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