"Don't raise Fed debt ceiling" means "Balance the Fed budget INSTANTLY"

Sorry, Gen, but your conclusion is just as flawed as the rest of your statements.

You're the one who has offered zero proof that: Higher Taxes = Greater Revenue, or that, Higher Taxes = Higher revenue as % of GDP.

Claiming "basic math" is not empirical evidence and neither is claiming "common sense".

My statement was that revenue remains around 18% of GDP regardless of tax rates, which is easily proven by looking at the data. I have made no others claims, your strawmen aside.
 
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You're the one who has offered zero proof that: Higher Taxes = Greater Revenue, or that, Higher Taxes = Higher revenue as % of GDP.

Claiming "basic math" is not empirical evidence and neither is claiming "common sense".

My statement was that revenue remains around 18% of GDP regardless of tax rates, which is easily proven by looking at the data. I have made no others claims, your strawmen aside.

Yes, and as long as "around" means give or take a few hundred billion, you've proven your point.
 
Yes, and as long as "around" means give or take a few hundred billion, you've proven your point.
You have yet to prove your "trickly up" theory despite being repeatedly asked to offer some empirical evidence.

Where is your evidence that higher taxes cause revenue to be a larger % of GDP? None of us have seen it.

Meanwhile, I have pointed out actual empirical facts that contradict your theory;

1. taxes going up and % of GDP going down
2. taxes going down % of GDP going up
3. taxes remain unchanged and % of GDP going up

How do you explain these facts which directly contradict your theory? You don't, instead you attack my statements as if that's a legitimate defense of your theory.
 
sometimes its best to give up when a person cant understand that a higher percent of the same amount ...is more.
It's clear to everyone that a larger % results in greater revenue, that's not what I have been taking issue with despite repeated strawmen statements to the contrary.

The issue is: What causes that % of GDP to fluctuate?

You "trickle up" theorists claim that higher taxes will increase revenue as a % of GDP, however, this theory is directly contradicted by the empirical data - a fact which you must ignore lest you admit that you believe in a fairytale as grand as those who believe the "trickle down", or lower taxes increases revenue, theory. They are both opposite sides of the same fallacious coin and one needs only look at the empirical evidence to see it.
 
A "balanced budget" is one where the money you take in (taxes, fees, "contributions" etc.) is equal to the money you spend (spending on govt, military, foreign aid, Social Security etc.), so that you don't need to borrow ANY money to make ends meet.

Congress has a debt limit set by law (that is, by Congress) that they may not exceed. The National Debt is not allowed to rise any higher than that limit. But every time they come close to it, they simply vote to raise it. This has been happening, often half a dozen times per year or more, for year after year, in administration after administration, for generations. It makes you wonder why they bother setting the limit, if all they are going to do is change it whenever they want to spend more.

Now we have calls to quit raising the debt limit. In a rich irony, those calls are coming from Democrats, which is like John Dillinger calling to end bank robberies. But regardless of whom it comes from, it's an idea worth looking at.

I don't know how close we are to the present debt ceiling, but we're probably pretty close (we always are). If we decide not to raise the debt ceiling any more, any further borrowing we do, will quickly raise our present debt to the existing limit. And once that happens, we cannot borrow a single dime more to make ends meet. Not even for a month, not even for a week. Any additional spending we do, must be paid for, right then and there, with additional revenue... or else we can't do that additional spending.

In other words, if we decide to stop raising the debt ceiling, that means we must write a completely balanced budget NOW. We can't borrow a single dollar, not even if we mean to pay it back tomorrow.

Even if Congress adopts a more forgiving version of "Don't raise the debt ceiling", turning it into "Our debt at the end of this year, cannot be higher than our debt at the end of last year, but if it goes a little higher in the middle of the year and gets quickly smacked backed down, that's OK".... it still means that we must adopt a balanced budget for every fiscal year... and stick to it.

A balanced Federal budget has never been achieved in living memory. Some people claim it was balanced for a few years in the 1990s after Congress cut the Capital Gains tax rate and CG activity (and tax revenues) soared as a result. But if you look at the National Debt at the end of every fiscal year in the 1990s (and in every other year), you'll see that the Natl Debt has gone up EVERY year, including those years where those people claim the budget was balanced. (For a hint of how this could be, look at funds for Social Security and other Fed trust funds. The govt takes in money as contributions, calls it revenue, puts it in the SS trust fund, then borrows it back out of the trust fund and calls it "revenue" again. Gee, we have twice as much "revenue" as we thought! But that borrowing must still be added into the National Debt, whose paper trail tells the real story).

But suffice to say, that balancing the Federal budget is a VERY difficult thing to do.

Those calling for an end to any further raises of the Debt Limit, are essentially calling for an immediate and permanent Balanced Federal Budget. Though such a thing will be painful, it can ultimately be beneficial for the country.

I've heard one report that the amount of the budget that goes for "discretionary" spending, is less than this year's deficit. If true, this means that we could stop ALL discretionary spending, and still not balance the budget-- we'd still have to violate the present debt ceiling by borrowing more to make ends meet.

What it means, is that if we are serious about not raising the debt ceiling, we're going to have to make some "non-discretionary spending", discretionary instead... and then cut it.

Careful what you wish for.

(Timely bump)

This year's deficit is about $1.3 trillion. Total "discretionary spending" is about $1.39 trillion.

"Discretionary spending" means the budget items whose spending is not (yet) mandated by Federal law. Sounds weird, but Defense spending is "Discretionary", while Social Security and other such programs are "Non-discretionary".

"Non-discretionary" doesn't mean we MUST spend this amount in this time. It just means that to change the amount we spend on this item, we have to change Federal law first. Well, we do that every year, many times a year, when we raise the Debt Ceiling. It's actually pretty easy to do. So why not do it to "Non-discretionary" spending as well?

So, in the event that we decide not to raise the Debt Ceiling any more, which "Non-discretionary" budget items should we change the law on, and then reduce? And which "Discretionary" items should we also reduce?
 
This illustrates the government's approach to the problem:

mrz041211dapc20110412014520.jpg
 
So, in the event that we decide not to raise the Debt Ceiling any more, which "Non-discretionary" budget items should we change the law on, and then reduce? And which "Discretionary" items should we also reduce?

That should be a new thread.

Military - all bases in Europe and other places where they are no longer needed.
Action in Libya. Afghanistand in about a year, and Iraq in about a year too cut by half or more.

Medicaid - becomes a states program so federal funds get cut 100%

Medicare - each person can opt out of the system or pay more into the system as they like. If they opt out they get a refund to put into a retirement account and will have earned interest equivalent to what they would get if they stayed in (not much) if they want to pay more, because rich folks do not pay in as much as poor folks as a percentage of their income then they get coverage that follows the principle "you get what you pay for"

Social Security - everyone gets back an equivalent of what they have paid in unless they want to stick it out.

Almost all other federal programs, like education, returned to the states.

Remaining programs cut by a straight percentage.

Eliminate any loopholes for the rich.
Stop all corporate welfare.
Tax every single person at the same rate and give every single person the same deductions and allowances. The rate would be "regressive" and the deductions and allowances would be "progressive". The end result would be a tax system that was neither regressive nor progressive.
 
sometimes its best to give up when a person cant understand that a higher percent of the same amount ...is more.

The amount being taxed does not stay the same.

When a store has a sale and lowers prices by a percentage their gross sales go up because more people are attracted to the store and they buy more.

If a store just decided to raise prices by a percentage sales may very well go down because people would just stop buying from them.

For stores the key is to find the price that results in the most in gross sales regardless of what percent mark-up it is.

For governments it has been calculated that 17% tax rate results in the most revenue. (sorry I no longer have the link ( and it is based on European countries ) ). 17% earns more revenue than a higher rate and also more revenue than a lower rate. I wish it were no so since I would prefer a tax rate closer to 10%.
 
The amount being taxed does not stay the same.

When a store has a sale and lowers prices by a percentage their gross sales go up because more people are attracted to the store and they buy more.

If a store just decided to raise prices by a percentage sales may very well go down because people would just stop buying from them.

For stores the key is to find the price that results in the most in gross sales regardless of what percent mark-up it is.

For governments it has been calculated that 17% tax rate results in the most revenue. (sorry I no longer have the link ( and it is based on European countries ) ). 17% earns more revenue than a higher rate and also more revenue than a lower rate. I wish it were no so since I would prefer a tax rate closer to 10%.

There is an optimal tax rate for the most government revenues. Whether that is 17% or not, I don't know, but it sounds about right.

And your analogy is a good one: Retail stores that charge too much lose customers, while those that don't charge enough lose income. Finding the optimal profit margin is the key.

So, how much is the real federal tax rate now? How does it compare to that 17% figure? Is that really the optimal rate?

The mantra of the right wing seems to be, "lower taxes, and we'll automatically have more government revenues." Without knowing the optimal and current rates, that is just wishful thinking. They're looking for a free lunch just as much as the "tax the rich" manta of the left. Problem is, there is no free lunch.
 
There is an optimal tax rate for the most government revenues. Whether that is 17% or not, I don't know, but it sounds about right.

And your analogy is a good one: Retail stores that charge too much lose customers, while those that don't charge enough lose income. Finding the optimal profit margin is the key.

So, how much is the real federal tax rate now? How does it compare to that 17% figure? Is that really the optimal rate?

The mantra of the right wing seems to be, "lower taxes, and we'll automatically have more government revenues." Without knowing the optimal and current rates, that is just wishful thinking. They're looking for a free lunch just as much as the "tax the rich" manta of the left. Problem is, there is no free lunch.

You are right that the mantra of the right is that if wwe lower taxes we will automatically have more revenue.

Clearly the gov should do what every large business in America does and apply some math to determine what the best point is.
 
You are right that the mantra of the right is that if wwe lower taxes we will automatically have more revenue.

Clearly the gov should do what every large business in America does and apply some math to determine what the best point is.

Yes, math beats wishful thinking and partisan BS every time.
 
Only if we ran it like a business...a business would say hey we have a debt problem...we should see what costs can be cut...AND how to bring in more money...also they would not scream bloody murder at the idea of spending money to make money. Also they would not have to make all choices with both there consumer and workers voting on them keeping there jobs.
 
If businesses were run like the federal government, 1000 would be hauled off to jail every hour. When the government does it, it's social security, when madoff did it, it was a ponzi scheme.
 
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There is an optimal tax rate for the most government revenues. Whether that is 17% or not, I don't know, but it sounds about right.

Based on what?? Did you just pull that out of your ass? ANY taxes suppress economic activity, lose jobs, pile debt on people, take away freedom. The "optimial" tax is the MINIMUM necessary for the LEGITIMATE activities of government.
 
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