hillary ending the war

[BytheRules]

She said she wouldn't have started it had she been president. But she voted to authorize it & hasn't had much to say adversly against it until now. HYPOCRITE! Or maybe she's just afraid of John Edwards.

Hillary on Iraq: 'I Would Not Have Started This War'

 

[USMC the Almighty]

She voted for it before she voted against it.

This proves that she has no convictions and is without a backbone - merely doing everything for her own political agenda.

 

[saggyjones]

She voted for it before she voted against it.

This proves that she has no convictions and is without a backbone - merely doing everything for her own political agenda.

All politicians flip-flop, do you want to see some of Bush's?

* Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
* Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
* Bush is against a WMD investigation; then he's for it.
* Bush is against nation building; then he's for it. (Even before 9/11 it was part of his foreign policy, PNAC. So drop the "everything changed after 9/11" malarky.)
* Bush said he'll provide money for first responders (emergency services); then he doesn't.
* Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
* Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
* Bush said he'll reduce Greenhouse gases; then doesn't do it.
* Bush is for a patient's bill of rights then; then he fights against it.
* Bush say that "help is on the way" to the military; then he cuts benefits.
* Bush talks about helping education; then he cuts funding.
* Bush says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea; then he says we will.
* Bush campaigns at racist Bob Jones University; then says he shouldn't have.
* Bush says he will demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq; then he announces he won't call for a vote.
* Bush says the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the Navy; then he admits it was his advance team.
* Bush is for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US; then he's against it.
* Bush is for a state's right to decide on gay marriage; then he's for amending the constitution to prevent it.

These aren't mine btw, I got them from http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/07/16_flip.html


This is to the bold part: How naive can you get! All politicians do stuff for their own political agenda, it's the only way they can get/stay in power and achieve things they believe to be important.

 

[InterestedParty]

I'd appreciate it if you could supply the original sources for your claims on Bush saggy. Not the link you supplied either. Original sources.

No offense, but I'd like to see the proof for myself.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

All politicians flip-flop, do you want to see some of Bush's?

* Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
* Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
* Bush is against a WMD investigation; then he's for it.
* Bush is against nation building; then he's for it. (Even before 9/11 it was part of his foreign policy, PNAC. So drop the "everything changed after 9/11" malarky.)
* Bush said he'll provide money for first responders (emergency services); then he doesn't.
* Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
* Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
* Bush said he'll reduce Greenhouse gases; then doesn't do it.
* Bush is for a patient's bill of rights then; then he fights against it.
* Bush say that "help is on the way" to the military; then he cuts benefits.
* Bush talks about helping education; then he cuts funding.
* Bush says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea; then he says we will.
* Bush campaigns at racist Bob Jones University; then says he shouldn't have.
* Bush says he will demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq; then he announces he won't call for a vote.
* Bush says the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the Navy; then he admits it was his advance team.
* Bush is for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US; then he's against it.
* Bush is for a state's right to decide on gay marriage; then he's for amending the constitution to prevent it.

These aren't mine btw, I got them from http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/07/16_flip.html


This is to the bold part: How naive can you get! All politicians do stuff for their own political agenda, it's the only way they can get/stay in power and achieve things they believe to be important.

Oh give me a break. None of these issues are even close to the level of magnitude of the Iraq War. Changing one's position isn't an inherently bad thing. When new facts come out, new information revealed, and altered circumstances -- revising your view and opinion isn't a bad thing.

It's when you obscure your opinion, like Hilary has done, for the benefit of your personal agenda (White House), that I have a problem.

 

[saggyjones]

Oh give me a break. None of these issues are even close to the level of magnitude of the Iraq War. Changing one's position isn't an inherently bad thing. When new facts come out, new information revealed, and altered circumstances -- revising your view and opinion isn't a bad thing.

Hilary changed her mind based on altered circumstances.

It's when you obscure your opinion, like Hilary has done, for the benefit of your personal agenda (White House), that I have a problem.

You are very naive, because every politician has to do just this so they can gain power.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

You are very naive, because every politician has to do just this so they can gain power.

Not John McCain. Not Joe Lieberman. Not even President Bush. I could go on. These are all men who make their opinions loud and clear. Hilary is intentionally making her opinion fuzzy so she can attract both the pro/anti-victory segments of her party.

 

[saggyjones]

I'd appreciate it if you could supply the original sources for your claims on Bush saggy. Not the link you supplied either. Original sources.

No offense, but I'd like to see the proof for myself.

Here's a much better site than the one I listed:

http://www.50bushflipflops.com/Introduction/home.html

It has all the sources there.

 

[saggyjones]

Not John McCain. Not Joe Lieberman. Not even President Bush. I could go on. These are all men who make their opinions loud and clear. Hilary is intentionally making her opinion fuzzy so she can attract both the pro/anti-victory segments of her party.

It's fine if you want to keep being naive about this, most people are. But all politicians change their opinions around so they can gain power to do what they think is necessary.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Here's a Voltaire quote that I like -- "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." - Voltaire

 

[saggyjones]

Here's a Voltaire quote that I like -- "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." - Voltaire

I like that quote too. But what does it have to do with the topic?

 

[USMC the Almighty]

I like that quote too. But what does it have to do with the topic?

Absolutely nothing. I just noticed your Voltaire quote and posted this one.

 

[saggyjones]

Absolutely nothing. I just noticed your Voltaire quote and posted this one.

I see. Voltaire was a pretty cool dude and I like his quotes. He had a lot of balls too lol

 

[InterestedParty]

Actually Saggy... I find the quote that you use to be quite revealing. I believe that USMC saw it also but has enough integrity to not call you out on it. I will.

It *hints* that maybe our men and women in uniform aren't serving the most noble of causes in your opinion. That deeply offends me.

I have no doubt that you are young. I have no doubt that you have failed to comprehend what it means to live in a country where our motives and actions are held to the highest level of scrutiny from all corners of the world. As well they should be. We have nothing to hide. What motivates us is not world domination. We don't want to control other people. We want for them what we have here. The chance of living a life free of tyranny. You don't begin to understand what our service personnel are facing worldwide. They are attempting to accomplish various missions to improve and protect the lives of people who will never know their names. Who won't remember their faces. These men and women in uniform understand that it is completely possible that they may lose their own lives for the benefits of complete strangers. How more noble could any cause be? Are you willing to do the same thing? I have no doubt what the answer to that question would be either.

You are nice and comfy and *safe* sitting behind that computer monitor and enabling the enemy. While people like USMC have been-- and are willingly-- and honorably doing the dirty work of guaranteeing that you will be able to do that again tomorrow. They don't want any gratitude from you. All they want is for you and those like you to not undermine their efforts and make their jobs more hazardous. Which is exactly what you are doing.

This isn't a Democrat versus Republican, Conservative versus Liberal issue. This isn't about your idealogy. No offense, but $crew your idealistic beliefs. These are real men and women putting their lives on the line for you and that little signatuire line you are using is deplorable. I don't give a damn what you believe to be the truth. The fact is you are advertising for the enemy. You are advertising that their claims are true which couldn't be further from the truth. Justify THAT to the millions of veterans scattered around this country.

 

[saggyjones]

It *hints* that maybe our men and women in uniform aren't serving the most noble of causes in your opinion. That deeply offends me.

Do you honestly think I care what offends you? I'll listen to your opinion and take it into consideration but I don't give a flying fu*k if you're offended by anything I say.

I have no doubt that you are young. I have no doubt that you have failed to comprehend what it means to live in a country where our motives and actions are held to the highest level of scrutiny from all corners of the world. As well they should be. We have nothing to hide. What motivates us is not world domination. We don't want to control other people. We want for them what we have here. The chance of living a life free of tyranny.

I'm fine with that and I was fine with taking out Saddam. Why are we still in Iraq? We need to let them have a civl war

You don't begin to understand what our service personnel are facing worldwide. They are attempting to accomplish various missions to improve and protect the lives of people who will never know their names. Who won't remember their faces. These men and women in uniform understand that it is completely possible that they may lose their own lives for the benefits of complete strangers. How more noble could any cause be? Are you willing to do the same thing? I have no doubt what the answer to that question would be either.

Actually I do begin to understand what they face from reading books and articles and watching the news. I have a general idea that it's hell for the troops.

A nobler cause would be one that actually helps people. I wholeheartedly support going into Darfur and any other place where there is genocide or very poor living conditions. But that's not what my argument or the thread is about. It's about leaving Iraq right now because we're accomplishing nothing there. By the way, here's a civilian body count so far:

Minimum civilians killed: 55664 Max. civilians killed: 61369
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

You are nice and comfy and *safe* sitting behind that computer monitor and enabling the enemy.

How am I enabling the enemy?

While people like USMC have been-- and are willingly-- and honorably doing the dirty work of guaranteeing that you will be able to do that again tomorrow. They don't want any gratitude from you. All they want is for you and those like you to not undermine their efforts and make their jobs more hazardous. Which is exactly what you are doing.

How?

This isn't a Democrat versus Republican, Conservative versus Liberal issue. This isn't about your idealogy. No offense, but $crew your idealistic beliefs. These are real men and women putting their lives on the line for you and that little signatuire line you are using is deplorable. I don't give a damn what you believe to be the truth. The fact is you are advertising for the enemy. You are advertising that their claims are true which couldn't be further from the truth. Justify THAT to the millions of veterans scattered around this country.

How am I advertising to the enemy?

Once again I don't care if I offend you or anyone else. And by the way, have you served in the military? I'm just wondering.